The zombie diet: Corrie Whisner

Athena

00:00:45 What, what would you-what do you prefer? Cookies or brains? [Athena and Dave chuckle]

Dave

00:00:49 So I, uh, I was really in character for—

Athena

00:00:52 You were, yes.

Dave

00:00:52 I had not eaten, so, um...

Athena

00:00:55 At least we kept you from getting hangry.

Dave

00:00:58 That's true. But I think besides that, I think it's also a really interesting episode with a lot of really good information.

Athena

00:01:05 Oh my gosh. Yeah. So we interviewed Corey Whisner who studies diet and nutrition. She is also at ASU. Um, but she's at the downtown campus in nutrition. [Dave agrees] And she just gives us the low down on like everything about diet, from like... is the food pyramids-like is that really a thing? Like she answers that question. And I really needed to know because I grew up in an era where it was like all food pyramid all the time.

Dave

00:01:36 And she-and she talks a lot about that. So, and like just these different sort of, like, fad diets, right?

Athena

00:01:43 Exactly.

Dave

00:01:43 Yeah. That's sort of zombify us... as well.

Athena

00:01:46 Right. Well, so yes. So how do we tell fact from fad, right? [Dave agrees} And in the world of diet, but maybe my favorite part of this episode is when she breaks down the caloric content of a brain and like what it's actually made of. [Dave agrees] That, I love that. So—

Dave

00:02:02 It's really-it's good. So, so I think people are going to learn a lot and they're going to switch to an all brain diet. [Athena and Dave laugh] So, it's not a fad.

Athena

00:02:11 Come eat brains! All right. So, let's jump right in with Corrie Whisner.

INTRO

00:02:53 ["Psychological" by Temi plays]

Athena

00:02:54 Today we have an awesome guest, Corrie Whisner. Um, Corrie, uh, you know a little bit about our podcast Zombified? Little bit?

Corrie

00:03:02 I don't...

Athena

00:03:02 Well, um, the whole idea of Zombified is to look at all of these forces that control our behavior, that influence us, that change us. Um, so diet, food, it's a hugely important thing for a lot of people, right? And it's something that exerts a lot of influence on our lives. So-so thanks so much for being here. And, um, Dave Lundberg-Kenrick, my co-host. Thank you for being here, too.

Dave

00:03:31 I'm happy to be here. I'm excited to-to hear about food zombification.

Athena

00:03:36 Yeah. So I realized, Dave, I really don't know much about your eating habits. What do you like to eat and are you zombified by food?

Dave

00:03:44 Oh yeah, definitely. I've like been eyeing these cookies that are like,

Athena

00:03:47 [Knowingly] Oh...

Dave

00:03:49 Over here since I sat down. Yeah, I uh—

Athena

00:03:50 I was just eating cookies before you guys came in. Sorry. [Laughter]

Dave

00:03:56 Um... but I pretty much eat anything.

Athena

00:04:00 Actually, do-do you want one?

Dave

00:04:01 Oh yeah, I'll take a cookie. There we go.

Athena

00:04:03 Yeah, here. [Plastic crinkles]

Dave

00:04:03 Mmmm...

Athena

00:04:03 You guys can hear that. Sorry. Sorry, everyone on the podcast. Um, Corrie do you want one?

Dave

00:04:09 Wow.

Corrie

00:04:10 Oh man, those look super crisp.

Athena

00:04:11 They're really delicious. Yeah.

Corrie

00:04:13 Oh man...

Athena

00:04:13 Sorry, guys for all, we're all zombified by food.

Dave

00:04:15 These are good cookies. [Crunching] Yes. Oh.

Athena

00:04:19 Yeah, I am too. I mean, I love food. I love to eat. Um, I don't know that I'm zombified by, like, my diet so much though. 'Cause I don't really have a diet. I really just eat what I want to eat. But, that's not necessarily how it works for all people. Right? Most people like have a diet that they feel like they should stick to it. Corrie, what's your sense of that in terms of how people-like, what are people's feelings about what they should be eating or not eating or do people just eat what they want to eat?

Corrie

00:04:52 I think it probably depends on the person that you're talking to. If I was in my classroom with my students, I think they'd have some pretty strong opinions about what they should and shouldn't be eating and the diets that they follow. But I think the general public often... how-there's a lot of misinformation and I think that they draw on that and then that's what leads into these dieting cycles where they're feeling like they're being successful and then they're not successful because they're not sustainable. And I think in terms of eating, the concept of sustainability from a-can you do this for your whole life is important to consider.

Athena

00:05:30 Mmm. So a lot of diets are not really realistic in terms of, like, long-term sticking with it?

Corrie

00:05:37 I would say no. Any fad diet, most of them are probably not going to be sustainable long-term. Some that you might consider a fad diet but are probably more mainstream-so like Weight Watchers for example, is very open to including anything, all foods count. It's about moderation and balance. And I think those are probably the same principles that I try to stress to students and people that I talk to because it can be really debilitating when someone's like, well, I have that piece of cake my whole day is ruined. [Athena agrees] And I don't agree that that's the right mentality to go through. Um, your day in a week, in a month or whatever you're doing. So it gets a little bit tricky.

Athena

00:06:24 Yeah. So it's not like an all or nothing kind of thing. Like either you're on your diet and you're sticking to it and you're good. Or are you like cheat your diet or you break it and you're bad and the world is over.

Corrie

00:06:35 Right. Yeah. [Laughter]

Dave

00:06:37 You never-you never see zombies cheat their diet, though, in the movies you never see them like grabbing a cupcake in between brains. [Athena and Corrie laugh] 00:06:45 They stick—

Corrie

00:06:46 That is true.

Dave

00:06:46 They stick to their diet pretty well.

Athena

00:06:47 That is true. That is true. So, um, and I think the plan is that we will get to-to this question of like what zombies eat and what zombies' diet is and what the implications are. But first we have to get through some issues about human diet, right?

Dave

00:07:04 True.

Athena

00:07:05 Like what is actually good for us, what is not good for us? So, so I have to ask, cause I— [sighs] I just wonder like what goes on with the nutritional recommendations seem to be changing all the time. Like, you know, this year eggs are good. Like, last year eggs were bad, like butter! I think it's great now some people say it's good. Some people now put butter in their coffee because that's supposedly healthy. When like 10 years ago, butter was, like, evil. So why do nutritional recommendations change all the time and what should we be doing about, I mean, what should we do as people who are wanting to eat healthy if the recommendations are changing all the time?

Corrie

00:07:48 [Pause] Oh, that is a loaded question on so many levels. [Athena and Dave laugh] Um, you're right, the dietary guidelines change all the time, about every five to ten years depending on what the nutrient is or if it's a whole dietary approach. Um, we used to have the "Diet Pyramid", now we have "My Plate". What about bowls? It's complicated. [Laughter] Um, but I think—

Athena

00:08:11 Wait, so is the pyramid not a thing anymore?

Corrie

00:08:13 It is not a thing.

Dave

00:08:15 So what is this plate? I've never heard of the "My Plate".

Corrie

00:08:18 Uh, so now instead of thinking about total number of servings of food groups that you need in a day, it's focused more on what you should be putting into a meal. I think they thought that that might be easier for all individuals, no matter what socioeconomic status or where they're at in life could understand that. And even small children can really conceptualize what they're putting on a plate. And so half your plate is supposed to be fruits and vegetables at a meal. And then about, uh, the other half you split into quarters. One quarter is meat and one quarter is grains.

Athena

00:08:51 What if you're just eating cookies off a table? [Laughter]

Corrie

00:08:54 That's a big plate. [More laughter]

Dave

00:08:58 What has grains? And, um, more grains...

Corrie

00:09:04 That really does have some grains. And even Cookie Monster knows that cookies are a 'sometimes' food. So that's in this recent development—

Athena

00:09:12 That cookies are sometimes food?

Corrie

00:09:13 Yeah.

Athena

00:09:14 I don't know about those.

Corrie

00:09:15 He-he also eats lots of fruits and vegetables now.

Dave

00:09:18 Yes. 'Cause he was sending a bad- [Corries agrees] Bad message.

Corrie

00:09:21 Yeah. Had a reputation for- [Dave agrees] For teaching kids bad things about cookies. And parents were having trouble saying no.

Athena

00:09:28 Because of Cookie Monster? Are-are cookies not good though? Are cookies okay? Can we eat cookies?

Corrie

00:09:34 I'm personally an advocate for grains. I think that they have a really important role in the human diet. And I think the, right now, especially with the surge of Paleo and Ketogenic Diets, um, greens are getting a really bad rep.

Athena

00:09:50 Hmm, and then there's all of the, um, like gluten intolerance and stuff, right? So people are having issues more with eating foods with grains. Why do you think that's happening?

Corrie

00:10:01 I think that is a complicated question, too. I think true Celiac Disease only affects about 1 in 300 people. But if you look at the statistics and look at how many people are going gluten free, it's far more than that. And most people aren't actually going through the clinically approved mechanisms for testing whether or not you have an intolerance or Celiac Disease. And so that actually requires you to eat wheat and then they'd check for antibodies to the gluten protein from wheat in your blood, which obviously if you really had Celiac Disease that'd be kind of a miserable experience.

Athena

00:10:37 Right.

Corrie

00:10:38 Um, and, uh, along those lines too, I think that we've had a lot of celebrities like Gwyneth Paltrow who have tried to make eating gluten-free this image of health. And um, in the last year some really good papers have actually come out that show that individuals who eat gluten-free have higher amounts of potentially toxic heavy metals in their urine and their blood—

Athena

00:11:08 Woah...

Corrie

00:11:08 —uh, because most of the flours are then made from other grains which have a higher, uh, tendency to uptake things like arsenic and [Athena is surprised] like cadmium for example would be another thing. And so like rice, for example, rice flours often used to replace things that we would make from wheat. And then if you're eating those things all the time, then you'll also have these higher concentrations. And we don't know what it means for health yet, but it's not necessarily a good thing. And then if you have to follow that diet, that's your only option. But what about all the people who are following it without needing to follow it?

Athena

00:11:44 So wheat is not so bad? Probably. Unless you like, it makes you like physically sick then you probably shouldn't eat it. [Corrie agrees] If you think that eating gluten free is just healthier, that's probably not the case.

Corrie

00:11:57 No, it wouldn't be the case. [Athena agrees]

Dave

00:11:59 Interesting. I have another general nutrition question 'cause um, one of my student workers was telling me that an egg is as bad for you as five cigarettes? Have you heard anything about this? Oh, oh— [Laughter] That it essentially the same level of carcinogens, which seemed hard for me to believe—

Athena

00:12:20 What?

Dave

00:12:20 —based on-so have you heard anything about this? Apparently there was...

Corrie

00:12:25 I have not heard the cigarette and the carcinogen comparison. Eggs for a long time have been demonized, especially for the cholesterol content. And the egg board actually did a really good job of funding a lot of research projects and other people got other types of money. So you know, there's issues with where funding comes from. I know sometimes that can be a criticism of some research, but they actually found that you can eat up to five or six eggs a day and it doesn't affect your cholesterol at all.

Dave

00:12:56 Oh, okay.

Corrie

00:12:56 Um, and eggs, actually, if you think about it from a nutritional standpoint, that egg is everything that you need for the potential of life. There is, in theory, like you can have this little chick developing in there and it has all of its nutrients to build all of the building blocks that it means to be the healthiest little chick it can be. So, in reality you're getting complete protein, um, and a lot of vitamins and minerals and other things that are really going to help boost growth and development. And so—

Athena

00:13:28 If you're a chicken.

Corrie

00:13:29 If you're a chicken [laughter] but then those are also the building blocks and the things that we need to just maintain our tissues on a daily basis. So it's actually a really good source of, um, protein. Uh, there—

Athena

00:13:40 But what if the egg was laid by a chicken that's smoked?

Dave

00:13:44 That's a good question. Smoke five cigarettes a day, apparently. [Laughter]

Athena

00:13:48 Yeah, yeah. Then what would the net effect on health be?

Corrie

00:13:54 It could be worse. I would have to go back to the literature to check that out. [Laughter]

Dave

00:14:00 So, we should not start making our pancakes with cigarettes.

Corrie

00:14:05 No, that probably wouldn't be good.

Dave

00:14:06 Yeah, yeah they fall apart, so... [laughter]

Corrie

00:14:10 That protein really helps to hold things together.

Athena

00:14:14 All right, so how about butter? What's the deal with butter?

Corrie

00:14:18 Oh gosh, butter is a tricky one, too. So for awhile, you know, it was all about eating margarine and then we found out that trans fat is actually worse than saturated fat in terms of what it does to clogging arteries and, um, affecting other metabolic processes. And so now butter, which has saturated fat, is actually a better option. And most foods have-kind of had the trans fat removed just because of the whole scare with that. Um, I think all fats are good in some amount. Saturated fat, you should probably limit to a smaller portion of the fat that you're getting in a day. So maybe between five and ten percent of your fat intake, you don't- definitely don't want to go over ten percent. Um, but butter tastes great. It makes food palatable. Um, I think trying to fit it in in some ways is actually going to mean that you're going to eat less because of the food you're eating actually tastes good and is filling. And you are happy when you eat it. I think that's an important thing. Like if you know you're trying to lose weight and all you eat is rice cakes, are you really going to be happy? [Athena agrees] Probably not.

Athena

00:15:23 So let's talk a little bit about diets and like where... Because you know, diets control a lot of people's behavior-or they influence a lot of people's behavior, right? The people think they should be eating something and not other stuff. And that influences, uh, I don't know, a lot of people and in their day to day lives. So, where, if we just look at, like, dieting now, you have a lot of like sort of the diet industry that's saying, you know, here's this diet, here's that diet. Um, how much of that is based on research in nutrition versus just like somebody's idea about what would be a nice marketable diet?

Corrie

00:16:05 [Pause] I think some of those diets have some evidence to support them, but I think much of the evidence is probably cherry picked to support what they want to put out there. And, and this is something that I struggle with because I'm not a business person. Obviously I study nutrients and how the body metabolizes things for living. A business wants to make money and a business wants to be around forever. So it seems to me that there may be some conflicts of interest in a company that has this fad diet that they've created. They want you to follow it, they want you to buy their products, but they don't want you to ever stop buying them. And I think to some extent they probably actually expect you to fail or that the diet is going to not work and then they have some new thing that they can roll out and, and that's probably a very pessimistic view [Dave chuckles] of the dieting business.

Athena

00:16:58 Very delightfully cynical. [Laughter]

Corrie

00:17:03 So I don't know. And I think that this is also what makes being in the field of nutrition really hard because we keep saying the same messages over and over, like "have variety in your diet", "eat fruits and vegetables", "get a variety of grains", you know, "be open to different sorts of protein sources". And maybe you know, you don't want to eat animal meat, but there are plenty of other sustainable options that you can go for and you know it's not flashy and we're not promising you that you're going to drop five pounds in a week, which actually is unhealthy. You probably only want to drop one pound max a week if you want to have the best chances of keeping it off longterm. But nobody wants to hear that because we're humans and we want quick fixes and things that are like the magic bullet for things and I just think diet's not a magic bullet.

Athena

00:17:53 So if you've got a diet product, like a diet or some, you know, products that you're selling associated with your diet and that makes people lose a bunch of weight in a short amount of time, but it's unsustainable. Then you get the sort of, you know, benefit for your marketing of, like, oh these people lost this much weight and people feel like, oh it worked. But then if it ends up actually not being sustainable, what, like people, like blame themselves then instead of blaming like the product for not actually being something that's sustainable? [Dave chuckles]

Corrie

00:18:30 Yeah, I think most people then turn to themselves and that's why then they try something else because they assume that whatever it was, it didn't work or they did something wrong. And I think the whole market is wrong because it's not using the right approach and it's actually making you have a bad relationship with a lot of different foods, specific nutrients, specific food groups, whether you're cutting it, you shouldn't cut out food groups. That's the diet. That's just not going to last at all. It'll get you the benefit that you're looking for. And I think in terms of, if we're talking specifically about weight, once you lose weight, it's really hard to keep it off. Your metabolism changes, you kind of rewire things and so then your weight may go back up and you are discouraged, but you're not necessarily thinking about maybe some of the other benefits that could've come from that. So maybe you were also exercising and cardiovascularly on the inside you're looking awesome and that's important.

So there's this concept and some people in my field hate it and some people love it, but this idea of fit and fat, so you may not be able to lose weight because weight isn't the be all end all. It's actually about your cardiometabolic health and is your vasculature healthy? Is your heart healthy? You know, are you avoiding developing diabetes? Those things are more important than your physical weight, but we have so much stigma around weight that I think that gets lost in the message.

Athena

00:19:59 Yeah. And how does this whole issue of, like, control or being in control of your eating or diet like play in? I know for a lot of people, like, having a feeling of being in control of their, their food intake is important. So, when it comes to, you know, zombification and control, it's like, you know, what does it mean to be in control of your eating and is that healthy? Is it not? Is there a sort of weird space where it goes from being healthy sort of control over eating to unhealthy control over eating?

Corrie

00:20:37 I think there's a lot of different scenarios wrapped up into that one question— [Laughter]

Athena

00:20:43 Alright, well start whereever you want. So...

Corrie

00:20:46 Um, so consider someone who is food insecure and gets, uh, SNAP-Ed, the new name for food stamps. Um, you may use up all of your credits for food in the beginning of the month and you have this excess of food available to you and you eat all of it and then maybe, you know, gain a little bit of weight from that, but then all of a sudden you've eaten everything and you don't have any way of getting more food. Um, I think in some ways that kind of fits what you're talking about 'cause you have this, you know, lots of food available, you're eating whatever you want and then all of a sudden you have nothing and you have to try to make ends meet. Or as someone who has a constant, uh, constant availability of food may be able to make different sorts of decisions—

Athena

00:21:33 You talking about that box of food in my corner over there by you? [Laughter]

Dave

00:21:37 Or the way you've eaten three nibbles of a cookie. [Laughter] It takes all my willpower not to just finish all—

Athena

00:21:47 All right, all right I'll move-I'll move the rest of these so that is takes a little less bandwidth from you, Dave. [Laughter]

Dave

00:21:52 Thanks.

Corrie

00:21:53 That's another thing: will-power. Um, I think it's really hard when food is sitting in front of you to not eat it. [Dave agrees] And, I...

Dave

00:22:04 [Whispering into the microphone] I'm gonna eat her cookie. [Laughter]

Corrie

00:22:04 And I think also like social settings and different things dictate what we eat when we eat and we forget about the social aspects of food. And it's not, it's not just about what you eat, but it's about enjoying the time with individuals. So this is maybe relevant: I was just at an etiquette dinner with some of the students on the downtown campus and we were learning about how to eat at a business dinner. And so it really—

Athena

00:22:36 Is this the thing that, like, is part of the nutrition program?

Corrie

00:22:39 No, it was just a fun activity with Dean—

Athena

00:22:41 Cool, okay.

Corrie

00:22:41 —and some students were invited and they needed faculty to go. So I volunteered. I was like etiquette. I could use some of that. [Laughter] But if everyone practiced good etiquette when they were eating, we would eat so much less. I tell you my soup was so cold by the time I made it through like five spoonfuls, because you're just scoop it away from you and then, like, lean in and then tip the spoon back, but never put the spoon in your mouth. And it was a really like thick, sweet potato soup. And so-there's just like dribbling all over my face. [Laughter] I was a hot mess. Then cutting, like you're supposed to put the silverware down in between each bite and you only cut exactly the piece that you can put in your mouth without being like [imitating messy eating noises] all crazy and then trying to like mow down this giant piece of food.

Athena

00:23:30 How about just like stabbing with a fork and then bring the whole thing to your mouth and chewing of a piece? Is that alright? [Dave and Corrie laugh]

Corrie

00:23:35 That would not have been okay.

Athena

00:23:39 No? Okay.

Dave

00:23:39 So you have to fit whatever's on the fork in your mouth all at once. And then put the silverware down and then that's polite society, right? [Athena and Corrie agree] Okay. I can do that. So.

Corrie

00:23:50 So things like that, we're always in a hurry. And so we're eating on the go and it takes about 20 minutes for your stomach to tell your brain to tell you that you are full and to stop eating. So if you're eating really fast, you've already eaten past the point of fullness. And so, you know, Thanksgiving, right? You have like the glutinous, like, post-turkey, like moaning and groaning. You're like, "Oh my gosh, my food baby". [Laughter]

Dave

00:24:19 So, but in sort of day-to-day life, um, if people aren't necessarily going to take an etiquette class, are there ways they can sort of-practical ways they could slow down their eating? 'Cause it—

Corrie

00:24:29 Sure.

Dave

00:24:29 —it sounds like you're saying slowing down the eating will help people eat more reasonable portion sizes.

Corrie

00:24:35 Yeah. So there's this whole movement for mindful eating now, which is about thinking about listening to your body telling you when it's full. Maybe listening to it if it's telling you that you, you know, if you have a craving, like don't deprive yourself of a craving. Like—

Athena

00:24:49 [Whispering tauntingly into the microphone] Eat another cookie, Dave... [Dave chuckles]

Corrie

00:24:52 You know, they're like—

Athena

00:24:54 Eat another cookie!

Corrie

00:24:54 —halfway through. [Laughter]

Athena

00:24:57 Dave is stealing half of Corrie's cookie. [Laughter]

Corrie

00:25:04 I mean, we've all been there, right?

Dave

00:25:06 I'll eat it mindfully. [Athena laughs]

Corrie

00:25:06 There you go! You're like really enjoying it, it's like-do you chew? Like sometimes we just get through it just to swallow and like be done, but then you're not satiated and you're not happy. So then you'd like reach for ice cream or something else and, um, sometimes I think this is why we started eating salads first so that we would kind of prime ourselves to be a little bit more full before the meat of the meal comes and, like, it has a lot more calories, maybe some sauces and other things. And then you'll maybe eat less of it or take some of it home. Um, I know I grew up in a family where we were forced to clean our plate and that's also not really a good situation either. So having family meals together where you can talk and enjoy time together and maybe dish up your own plate based on how you're feeling and you can always get more, but not really forcing people to eat everything I think is another important thing that we could all do more of. I know sometimes I just load up at the counter and then I take it and I'm like, well, I'm kind of full, but it's already on my plate.

Athena

00:26:08 You don't want to waste.

Corrie

00:26:10 I don't like wasting. [Laughter]

Athena

00:26:11 But sometimes there's a tension between not wasting and actually like eating the right amount for yourself.

Corrie

00:26:19 Oh yeah. My mom was always like, there's a starving child in Africa if you don't eat that, just think about how sad that is for them. And I'm like, oh my God.

Athena

00:26:29 I feel like that was like for all of, I don't know about you Dave, but like that was part of my childhood, too. It was like guilt about not eating because somewhere there are people who are starving, but I know there wasn't an option of like giving that to the starving child in Africa.

Dave

00:26:43 Yeah, I always had the same, it never made sense to me where it's like, why are you giving it to me? Like I clearly don't want it. And so if this kid wants it, now I feel even worse. Like now I'm stealing food from some starving kid that I didn't even want. So, like... [Laughter]

Athena

00:26:59 So trauma.

Dave

00:26:59 Yeah! So it didn't quite work for me. So, but, uh...

Athena

00:27:07 Mmm. Yeah, well, so maybe we should have a conversation about actually what is going on globally in terms of nutrition?

Dave

00:27:18 It's a good question.

Athena

00:27:19 Yeah. And like, what are things that, you know, those of us who grew up with our parents telling us they're starving children in Africa, finish your broccoli. Like, what could we actually do to help deal with the problem of food insecurity globally or even locally? Like what, what is the sort of status now of like food insecurity in general?

Corrie

00:27:44 It's-oh gosh-there's so many problems still across the globe. I think that countries that have been struggling for a long time politically, economically, you see a lot of that. I mean, Africa's has some regions that are doing fine and others that aren't and obviously we have different programs for aid and USA-USA ID does a lot to help with that. Um, there are also these different foundations you can donate to like the Heifer Foundation where you buy a cow and then they can produce milk and eventually maybe like breed the cow and get babies and then meat and other things. So there are options and ways that we can all get involved. Um, mission trips and other things. Um, I know that the US does send a lot of food sorts of care packages over and they've really-food scientists have done a great job of finding ways to make food last longer and stay fresh. So like now we have like the powdered peanut butter packets that you can send and you can add water and then the peanut butter to eat or you can just eat the powder and it lasts for years and years. Um, so there's a lot of options and ways that we can help, but I don't know that we're doing all that we can.

Athena

00:28:56 Yeah. And then how about, you know, in-in the US I mean, I know that like issues of food insecurity are a growing issue even among university students.

Corrie

00:29:04 Yeah. Actually one of my colleagues is, um, an expert in food insecurity and has been doing a lot with the college students at ASU. And, uh, very passionate and I never would have occurred to me that that was a problem on college campuses. But it is, and whether it's for the same reasons that maybe a low income family is food insecure, I don't know the answer to that, but I think it is an important questions for us to delve into and understand and how we can best help those communities.

Athena

00:29:34 All right. 'Cause I mean we really have the luxury of being like, "Oh, I'm feeling a craving for a cookie and I'm going to keep myself from eating it." Right? Like, 'cause we have a cookie that can be like "eat me, eat me". Right? Not everybody has that. So it's kind of, you know, we're coming from place of a lot of privilege to be even grappling with things. Like how do we have healthy eating in the face of abundance?

Corrie

00:29:58 Mmm-hmm. No, definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave

00:30:01 Should we talk about the zombie stuff and then come back to the—

Athena

00:30:03 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, well, can I ask you just one more thing about, about like craving? So what is the current thinking about like cravings 'cause food itself, right? Like you could say, oh my diet is zombifying me. But like how about, like, the food itself? Like is the food controlling behavior? You mentioned that it's hard to like not eat like when there's food in front of you. So, I mean, would you say that the food is itself like zombifying us or...?

Corrie

00:30:34 It's possible. I think everybody wants to think that sugar is zombifying us and this idea of addiction, but for food, rather than things that we've more traditionally think of addiction for like smoking and alcohol. But the... [pause] I totally lost my thought there.

Athena

00:30:55 Yeah. So addiction to sugar, like are we, is it-is like the food itself zombifying us? Do you want to add something, Dave?

Dave

00:31:02 Yeah. I was also gonna ask, like, I've heard all this talk about sort of like the microbiomes and how like what we eat changes what we crave. Like is that-I mean, is there truth to that?

Corrie

00:31:15 I think there is a lot of truth to that and I think we're just now scratching the tip of the iceberg on how to understand and study those relationships. Um, I mean I think microbes affect our metabolism more than we ever gave them credit for. You know, before it was honestly, it's just our normal flora. They're just hanging out there, not doing anything, but they're doing a lot right.

Athena

00:31:38 And they can tap into our hunger systems or satiety system, right.

Corrie

00:31:42 They actually produce hormones that trigger that system. Yeah, a lot of different hormones and those travel to our brain and tell us different things. And I think this is why, and I've noticed this even about myself, like if I eat, if I make a cake and eat it all myself or sometimes happens like everyday that I have cake, then the cake's gone and I'm like have this, oh, just hankering for more cake. And then after a few days of like not giving into the hankering for more cake, it does go away. And I don't know if that's me or my gut bugs or what's telling you.

Athena

00:32:15 I have the same thing with ice cream. Like, like I'll get into this habit of like, okay, it's like an hour after dinner, I want a little treat and I'll have like a scoop of ice cream. And then the next day I feel a little bit more like I want a scoop of ice cream. And then the next day it's just like, now it's time for ice cream. And it goes on like this until the tub of ice cream is gone. And then I'm like, oh, I'm now like addicted to this ice cream. Like, where is my freaking ice cream? Um, but then if I stop, like with your cake, then it does go away.

Corrie

00:32:46 I know, it's weird, isn't it?

Athena

00:32:47 It's weird. Yeah.

Dave

00:32:48 I don't, I, I, so I tried giving up carbs just completely, because I'm bad at moderation as you guys have seen. [Laughter] 00:32:59 It never-the craving never went away, you know, like it got a little better. But even like three months later, it would still be like, I-I'd see when there'd be like, you know, cupcakes or whatever in the break room. And I'd just be like, it's, it's tough. Um, but I don't know if I just didn't give it enough time.

Athena

00:33:17 Well, you know, there's this whole thing about how fruit evolved to actually be appealing to mammals so that we would eat it and spread the seeds around, which is different from how a lot of other plants evolved that we eat.

Corrie

00:33:32 Hmm.

Athena

00:33:33 So the fruit actually evolved to be appealing to us so that we would sort of be, its vector for like going elsewhere and growing elsewhere. So maybe sugar is a little different from other things, food-wise, because at least the way our like, you know, we evolved to, you know, to like it because it has all these properties, but a lot of sweet things also evolve to manipulate us or, I mean, for our own benefit, right? To like give us what we want. So I dunno, maybe there's something different about—

Corrie

00:34:09 I never thought about it that way.

Athena

00:34:09 —sweet things.

Corrie

00:34:10 But at the same time, we have so many sweet receptors on our tongue and that's one way that we can perceive whether or not something is safe to eat. Oftentimes sweet things are safe, not always, but more frequently than bitter things.

Athena

00:34:23 Right. So, and I guess if you're tasting the sugar, that means it hasn't yet been consumed by microbes that might be spoiling it.

Corrie

00:34:29 True. Yeah, that's definitely true.

Athena

00:34:33 Mmm-hmm. So there's a lot of good things about sweet stuff, but yeah. Is it-is it unique like in terms of the way that it sort of drives people's eating behavior, is it like, is sugar kind of more of a thing for like driving eating and like savory or fatty things or—

Corrie

00:34:56 I think everybody has sort of a different flavor palate that they're interested in. Some people really like the, you know, the texture and the taste of fat or like other people like umami or savory things. [Athena agrees] 00:35:10 But I think from just thinking about metabolism, the way that I do, carbohydrates are the preferred fuel source for ourselves. It's the easiest to metabolize and therefore the easiest to give us energy. We have to work really hard to break down fat, and protein... is like you're desperate at that point and you're breaking down your protein. So people who are like, "Oh yeah, I'm eating Paleo" and they eat meat all the time. It's not really a great fuel source. And then you have all this nitrogen in the protein that you also have to then break down and turn into urea and then pee out, which is kind of hard on your kidneys. So carbs are gentle, they are easy to move into metabolic pathways to make ATP so that we have, you know, we're not slugging around tired all the time.

Athena

00:36:03 So there's a reason that Dave likes carbs so much.

Corrie

00:36:07 Yeah, I think so. [Laughter]

Dave

00:36:12 Yeah. I guess I like, yeah, I just like to eat so—

Athena

00:36:16 Everything?

Dave

00:36:18 Uh, pretty much. But I do, I definitely carbs are the, um, carbs are my biggest weakness.

Athena

00:36:25 Carbs are your biggest weakness?

Dave

00:36:27 Yes.

Athena

00:36:27 Alright, well...

Corrie

00:36:27 Maybe that's your gut bugs telling you, though, that they want that, too. I mean, greens have one of the most diverse profiles of dietary fibers and polyphenols, which our gut bugs love. So in essence, if you're eating things, even this cookie, although it has a lot of sugar, it also has a lot of complex carbohydrates in the form of the flour and so you're kind of getting a little bit of all the good stuff. So there's fiber in there, there's polyphenols—

Athena

00:36:56 There's chocolate.

Corrie

00:36:57 Chocolate, more polyphenols.

Athena

00:36:59 Yeah, great. [Laughter]

Dave

00:37:02 But, I mean, there is also the thing of if I just eat carbs all the time. I'll gain weight, right? And I don't really want to gain weight. So there's...

Corrie

00:37:11 See, and that's where I don't know that we have good evidence to show that carbohydrates lead to weight gain. I think there's this concept of energy balance. So you have the certain number of calories that your body needs every day to maintain life and your activity level and carbohydrates themselves actually are harder to turn into fat, which is what we kind of perceive as the things that, you know, make us gain weight. And so you're actually probably, maybe you're just overeating a little bit or you're not active enough. And so finding sort of a balance between your activity and your intake and just being cognizant of how much you're eating of things I think is probably more important than the actual source of the food.

Dave

00:37:55 Right. That's why like when I was, well I guess when I gave up processed carbs, I would allow myself to eat as much fruit and veggies as I wanted. And that actually worked. I lost some weight doing that. 'Cause then I think it also led to me having to eat slower. So, um...

Athena

00:38:10 Yeah, that's the thing. It's like if you're eating a salad, it takes so much longer than like eating a steak.

Corrie

00:38:17 That's true.

Dave

00:38:17 Yeah. There's a point where it's just like not worth it anymore. It's like I just don't want to eat any more lettuce. [Laughter]

Athena

00:38:25 So Corrie, how does Dave's diet compare to a 'Zombie Diet'?

Corrie

00:38:34 Oh, well, so Dave clearly likes carbs. [Athena agrees] I think we've established that. And when it comes to zombies, I like to categorize them into two types. So there's the old-school 'Dawn of the Dead', kind of like lumbering slow zombies, and then there's sort of the modern zombie like 'World War Z', where they move lightening quick and your chances of getting away are probably slim-to-none.

Athena

00:39:01 So they have totally different nutritional needs is what you're saying because of these different, like, lifestyles that they have?

Corrie

00:39:08 I probably over-thought it, but yes, I think so. [Laughter] So if we start with the old school zombies that lumber along very slowly and we think back to, you know, historically we think of their primary fuel source is a brain. Like that's what they want to go for. So they are mostly only interested in brain. They'll leave the rest of the body behind.

Athena

00:39:34 That's kind of how I am with people. It's like, I really just want your brain. [Laughter]

Corrie

00:39:40 And that's why I'm here. [Laughter] Um, so if we break that down, you know what's in a brain, right? So there's about 2000 calories in one human brain.

Athena

00:39:56 Really? That doesn't seem like that much. I mean that's like caloric. That's how many calories the average adult needs or is this, has that also changed?

Corrie

00:40:04 Oh yeah. I mean on every food package, most of the percent daily values are related back to the 2000 calorie diet.

Dave

00:40:11 So what would be like, what would be a food, like how much, like what would, like, In-n-Out Burger, like a Double Double.

Corrie

00:40:19 I've never been to In-n-Out...

Dave

00:40:20 So-so I guess—

Athena

00:40:20 Like compared to—

Dave

00:40:20 Yeah, yeah.

Corrie

00:40:24 So, like most burgers. If you were to eat a burger from a restaurant, you know, where you have to like smash it down just to fit it into your mouth 'cause they're all so giant today, you're looking at just for that burger anywhere, depending on what's on it, probably 1000 to 1500 calories I would guess.

Dave

00:40:39 So it's like two-one and a half to two burgers is a brain. Right? Okay.

Corrie

00:40:45 Yeah, yeah. I think that makes sense.

Dave

00:40:47 All right, so...

Athena

00:40:47 All right. Fully loaded double cheeseburger with bacon [Corrie agrees] Is equivalent to a brain, calorically speaking.

Dave

00:40:54 To one plain brain with no, no ketchup. No mustard. Just the brain.

Athena

00:41:01 [Giggling] Okay.

Dave

00:41:01 All right.

Athena

00:41:01 This is getting so gross. [Laughter]

Dave

00:41:04 Maybe like a lettuce wrap brain, alright? I mean you got to have someway to eat the thing.

Athena

00:41:14 With peanut sauce.

Dave

00:41:14 So alright... [Laughter] So zombies, is it just the calories that the zombies are craving? Are there other nutritional elements that uh—

Corrie

00:41:27 Well, I've thought a lot about that, too. And so what's in brain is basically all fat with a little bit of protein next to no carbohydrates in a lot of cholesterol.

Athena

00:41:39 But wait, isn't like-aren't sweet breads quote sweet? Like so they've got to have some carbs, right? From the sugar—

Dave

00:41:47 Wait, sweetbread? Sweet?

Athena

00:41:48 Sweetbreads, like isn't that the euphemism for brains of animals?

Corrie

00:41:55 Isn't that how it's prepared though?

Athena

00:41:56 No, I think it's like actually the sugar in the brain.

Dave

00:42:03 I don't know. I've never had that. I thought it was like a pie, isn't it like, I think, I think it is. It might have, we'll have to look this up.

Athena

00:42:11 Yeah, we'll, yeah... brains.

Dave

00:42:11 Should we look it up? Let's just look it up right now. [Laughter] What's in a sweetbread—

Athena

00:42:17 But maybe it's not much carbs, right? But just like—

Corrie

00:42:20 It's about 14 grams of carb.

Athena

00:42:22 Okay.

Corrie

00:42:23 So that's maybe the equivalent of, from the Food Pyramid, like one serving of carbs. It's not very much.

Athens

00:42:29 So it's like a few of those cookies or something.

Corrie

00:42:31 Yeah. Let's have a look. 00:42:33 So two, two of our cookies here has 18 grams of carbohydrates.

Athena

00:42:40 All right. So brain has about as much sugar as two cookies. [Corrie agrees] All right.

Corrie

00:42:45 So most of your calories are coming from fat.

Athena

00:42:48 Okay. All right. And so that's what the slow zombies need is the— [Corrie agrees]

Corrie

00:42:53 And so one way to think about it is that a zombie is actually following a Keto diet... [Laughter]

Dave

00:43:02 And they're thin most of the time, so.

Athena

00:43:06 Yeah, that's true!

Corrie

00:43:06 They also have their skin hanging off. But you know, it's minor details. But, you know, and I think if you compare it to a human who follows a Keto Diet and you go and you look at the blogs and read about it, everyone talks about the Keto flu. So this feeling of like fatigue or malaise. And almost having like flu like symptoms when you start the Keto Diet.

Athena

00:43:37 So it's like Keto zombies.

Corrie

00:43:39 Yeah, essentially. So they aren't, they don't have the proper fuel to allow themselves to have energy because fat is harder to metabolize and turn into energy. And so the things that allow your muscles to move quick are carbohydrates, because you can optimize and burn the fuel much faster than fat. And so they can't move quick because they have no carbohydrate to optimize quickly.

Athena

00:44:04 Just give them a cookie, let them have a cookie! [Laughter]

Dave

00:44:09 It's not on the Diet. Only one thing on the diet. That's brains. [Laughter] They remind themselves constantly.

Corrie

00:44:19 Maybe they crave it because if you know, you look at how a zombie moves, it's kind of disjointed and they like have these odd kind of maybe, like, spasms or things and maybe eating it so that they can re-myelinate their nervous system to keep that healthy so that they can move more effectively. Or maybe they want all of the signaling hormones that come from the brain. Maybe they want to feel happier. It's true. Not pleased with what's going on with them. I don't know.

Dave

00:44:48 There was a, there was a movie like that with the guy who dated Jennifer Lawrence where he's, it's like a remake of Romeo and Juliet, but with-he's a zombie. Have you guys-am I the only person who seen-oh, it's actually really good.

Corrie

00:44:59 I feel like I've seen almost every Zombie movie.

Dave

00:45:00 Oh, this one's really good. Um, I'll look it up.

Athena

00:45:03 That's what I, I mean I love this like thinking functionally about, you know, for a slow zombie. Like why might they be eating brains? Like, what are they getting, functionally speaking, from the brain that's helping them deal with the challenging situation that they're in of being undead.

Corrie

00:45:19 Yeah. And the cholesterol-so in a brain, there's actually 13000% of your daily value of cholesterol and cholesterol is a building block for almost every signaling hormones like Serotonin and Melatonin. Things that make us feel better. And so perhaps maybe there is a mechanism to deal with the pain they're feeling from their degrading flesh and bodily parts.

Athena

00:45:45 Wow.

Dave

00:45:46 Hey, they do seem pretty immune to like injury and things. Right. So maybe...

Corrie

00:45:50 Yeah, maybe the brains are helping.

Athena

00:45:53 Wow. All right. And how about the fast zombies?

Corrie

00:45:57 So yeah, the fast zombies, so this is my take on this. So they're moving quick. So they probably have a fuel source that they can optimize a bit more efficiently. So that would mean that they're getting carbohydrates from somewhere. And if you've, you know, followed through all the zombie movies as they sort of evolved over the decades, um, modern zombies don't really always seem to be going for brains. In fact, they kind of hunt in hoards and then they kind of just start eating whatever part of the body they have available to them. So perhaps they're aware of the opportunity costs with cracking a skull and getting a brain out. Um, but a lot of them you see going for the innards.

Athena

00:46:38 Right, yeah.

Corrie

00:46:39 And you know, maybe ripping a limb off or something like that. And so when you think about that, um, what are the things in the abdominal cavity that they might be eating? Well, the liver is actually a predominant site for storing glycogen, which is concentrated carbohydrate. So that's a good fuel source. So there's about a hundred grams of glycogen in the liver. And then all of your musculature throughout the body basically houses another 400 grams of glycogen. So perhaps there's some benefit to going for the mid-section and the limbs because you know the slow zombies are going to be sitting there trying to figure out how to crack a skull open to get the brain while you can be getting an optimal fuel source. And there are a lot of vitamins in the central part. Like the liver is just a mecca for vitamins and different mineral processing.

Athena

00:47:32 So are the fast zombies like, "Give me that foie gras"? [Laughter]

Corrie

00:47:35 Yeah, I think so.

Athena

00:47:38 Next time you're on a date and someone orders it...

Corrie

00:47:44 And oddly enough, carbohydrates, to burn them and turn them into energy, need the help of a number of B vitamins and your liver actually processes and stores quite a few of those B vitamins. So then, not only do you have the fuel available, you now have the keys to unlock the potential of that fuel.

Athena

00:48:02 So the liver is actually kind of awesome.

Corrie

00:48:04 Yeah, it is

Dave

00:48:06 Interesting.

Athena

00:48:07 How come we like don't, I mean this is huge too, right? It's like half of your abdomen or I mean maybe not that much, but it's big and we hardly ever talk about it or hear about it when we think of the organs inside us, it's always like the heart and the lungs cause they're like so dynamic and doing stuff but the liver's just like sitting there.

Corrie

00:48:28 I feel like most people just kind of view, the liver as sort of a filter, but it's so much more. It produces, I mean the Krebs cycle, which is how we make energy is just a prolific thing that's going on there. We're making lots and lots of ATP. Um, it helps to make bile so that we can emulsify and absorb fats, it, um, processes a number of different blood related pathways. Um—

Athena

00:48:54 And it can like dynamically get bigger or smaller, right? Depending on its use. So.

Corrie

00:48:59 Yeah, and it's actually one of the few parts of our bodies that if you were to use a little part of it, it could actually regenerate itself, which is kind of cool because humans don't really do very much in the regeneration sector. [Athena agrees]

Dave

00:49:13 That's pretty cool. Why has liver fallen out of fashion as a thing to eat? Like not human liver, but I feel like my mom's— [Laughter] I mean, I know when I watched, uh, 'Silence of the Lambs' and he ate liver. Now nobody eats liver. Oh. No, but before that—

Athena

00:49:33 I like liver.

Dave

00:49:33 Do you?

Athena

00:49:34 But I also like brains you know.

Dave

00:49:36 Oh, do you actually eat brains?

Athena

00:49:38 No. No, but I just, I like people's brains.

Dave

00:49:42 Gotcha.

Corrie

00:49:42 Yeah.

Dave

00:49:42 But I don't know. I feel like maybe it, maybe it was just my household. I felt like, I know my mom's mom would always make her eat liver and it seemed like it was a thing of that generation and now I don't feel like I ever see people eat liver.

Corrie

00:49:57 Yeah. Culturally, we used-like a long, long time ago, he did eat organ meat and actually organ meat is such a good source of so many nutrients. It's where we store a lot of things and now we just eat muscle tissue, which actually stores less of most things, so it's actually not the best source of vitamins and minerals. And so if you think about the Inuit populations that do eat organ meat, they can get almost all their vitamins and minerals just from eating organs. And then I think this is also why we are, you know, now, so reliant on the supplements because we have to work that much harder to get what we need and why it fell out of fashion? I don't know. I personally don't care for the taste of liver. I think it tastes like an iron rod, but that's just me. Maybe I've never had it prepared right. And I definitely like pâté, though, and I know that has ground up liver. So, um, and that makes me feel French and fancy. [Laughter] Yeah. So there's some benefits.

Dave

00:50:56 Yeah. I think that's actually why we stopped-I think my mom hated the taste of liver as well, and that's why she never cooked it. But, uh, but I've heard it's really healthy but like never eat it.

Athena

00:51:05 So just to get the like appropriate comparative perspective here, too, I know that you also have done some work on vampire nutritional needs. So how do zombies compare to vampires?

Corrie

00:51:20 Oh, yes. So, um, so we talked about zombies and the two potential types of zombies. And so they're, you know, fueled primarily from either, maybe some glycogen and fat and protein versus fat mostly. Vampires, again, vampires I think have evolved over time and we have vampires who drain entire human bodies and then we have vampires who maybe only need a couple tablespoons of blood here and there to subsist and they can actually eat other foods along with that. And so thinking about what is in blood that a vampire might need—

Athena

00:51:58 This isn't actually like that far from some aspects of reality. I mean, humans don't typically drink other humans' bloods, but you know, there are blood transfusions which happened. So people get blood from other humans that goes directly into their bloodstream. And there are a lot of human populations that consume animal blood as the regular part of their diet. In fact, a huge part of their diet. Right. So, oh, like—

Corrie

00:52:23 Yeah, definitely.

Athena

00:52:23 Yeah. So blood is, is a thing that organisms will take from other organisms for various reasons. [Laughter] Not just vampires.

Corrie

00:52:38 Um, so things that are in blood. I mean, you do have some fat, um, you have proteins-there are a lot of proteins that float around and carry different metabolites from cell to cell. Um, it has a little bit of carbohydrate, maybe six grams in a whole human body because our goal is to get, it's just a super highway of traveling from the gut where we absorb it and then we want to get it into the cells where things actually happen. So the blood's not really this source of massive amounts of carbohydrate. Actually, if that were the case, you'd be eating a diabetic and then that's a whole 'nother story.

Athena

00:53:12 So how does the sugar get from, you know, our digestive system to all the places in our body where it can, you know, tell our muscles or can do stuff, through the blood presumably. [Corrie agrees] But it's just a little at a time.

Corrie

00:53:27 Yeah. So we have proteins that line the gut called glucose transporters or there's GLUT1, 2, 3, 4 and so on. And those are upregulated when we eat sugar and they mobilize themselves and put them into the outer membrane of the cells. And then that allows glucose to start to move over into the blood and then the glucose floats around in the blood and cells put out receptors and grab it and take it in. And say glucose transporters that are in the intestine, they're just moving in a different direction other than into the body and then moving into a cell and then cells do their thing with them, usually travels into the mitochondria. And then that's where the Krebs Cycle happens. But generally we don't really want glucose to just be floating around in the blood. Actually, if you saw high concentrations, that would be indicative of a problem like diabetes because that means that your cells aren't able to take up the glucose.

Athena

00:54:20 Right. And if you have a bunch of sugar floating around in your blood too, you can get bacterial growth, right? Like because there's bacteria, not in super high concentrations, but there's always like some there and if there's sugar then they can like bloom and go crazy.

Dave

00:54:35 So would vampires benefit from eating diabetics in terms of getting more well rounded diet?

Corrie

00:54:41 I don't know. I never really thought about what they need for fuel more than as why I thought about why they need to eat blood. And there are really interesting, um, iron regulatory proteins that manage how much iron comes in through an intestine, how much iron goes into our cells, and then how much we excrete on a daily basis. And there's a condition called hemochromatosis where people have basically like iron overload where their body can't get rid of excess iron. And I would suspect that a vampire that drains whole humans would basically have the opposite of hemochromatosis where they can't maintain their iron levels and iron is needed to carry oxygen throughout the body.

Athena

00:55:29 They're just like super anemic. [Corrie agrees]

Dave

00:55:31 That's why they sleep all day.

Corrie

00:55:34 They're pale, and like sensitive to light... [Laughter]

Athena

00:55:35 It's all starting to make sense.

Dave

00:55:42 It's just like contagious anemia.

Corrie

00:55:44 Yeah.

Athena

00:55:49 All right. So, um, we've already talked a little bit about like, um, well is there anything else about vampires and zombies that you want to tell us before-and their nutritional needs-before we kind of go on?

Corrie

00:56:01 Not that I can think of right now.

Athena

00:56:03 Okay. All right, great. So, um, we always kind of, well before we go to our last question, is there anything you wanted...?

Dave

00:56:10 No. Yeah, no, that was good.

Athena

00:56:11 So we always ask about the apocalypse because you know zombies, apocalypse. Yes. And so what is like the, the diet apocalypse in terms of like if we as humans, we're so controlled by food or by diets, like what's like the worst case scenario of like the effect of food and diets on us, like ramping way up. Like what, what would happen in the world? Do you want to add anything Dave to that? The apocalyptic scenario?

Dave

00:56:46 No, I think that's, I think that's good. What do you think?

Corrie

00:56:50 So let me make sure I understand the question. Are we trying to survive a Zombie apocalypse? With food or?

Athena

00:56:56 Oh, we could certainly talk about that, too. Is that this first question—

Dave

00:57:01 Actually, before we go to this question—

Athena

00:57:02 Yeah. Yeah, alright. Excellent.

Dave

00:57:03 I have one other sort of question about zombies. Right? So one thing about zombies is they seem to just be obsessed with food, right? They're ignoring all sorts of social motives and things like that to just eat. Do you have any theories on why that would be? Is it just...

Corrie

00:57:22 Well, if their metabolism is deranged in some way, it's kind of like the, maybe the whole theory of, you know, you put your oxygen mask on the airplane on yourself first before other people, and maybe they're just always in the state of trying to maintain their own health. They don't really have time for social aspects of sharing.

Dave

00:57:45 Yeah, it's a shame.

Corrie

00:57:47 It is a shame.

Athena

00:57:49 Why? Why are they in hoards? I guess this is another question, right? So presumably they'd be able to get more meat from a-their kill if they hunt by themselves as opposed to in hoards. But is there some benefit to being in a group here, a zombie that outweighs the competition over the food sources? i.e. human bodies?

Corrie

00:58:19 Like a pack of hyenas... And then they're all just kind of like, well, if he's going somewhere, he's going to find something and then I'll maybe get a little bit, and I don't know. It's probably easier to take down humans when there's a large group too, because one, that's terrifying. And then people don't always make the best judgment calls when they're freaking out. And then, you know, it's like a squirrel, right? You're driving down the road and then the squirrel runs in front of the car. They always run the wrong way and then they get hit. Maybe zombies-like humans know, or the zombies know that humans are just going to run the wrong way and they're going to trip and fall and then inevitably there will be a feast. [Athena agrees]

Dave

00:59:04 That's true. Plus then you do get some social aspect 'cause you're all eating together. So that's nice.

Corrie

00:59:10 That's true.

Athena

00:59:10 Yeah. But eating together, as we heard earlier, can sometimes help to modulate your eating behavior so you eat more appropriately. Right?

Corrie

00:59:18 Yeah, that's true.

Athena

00:59:19 So do zombies eat better in groups than they do alone?

Dave

00:59:26 They eat more mindfully? [Laughter]

Athena

00:59:33 Do they like tip the soup spoon instead of putting it in their mouth? If they're zombies-what would some be etiquette be anyway for like eating in in a crowd.

Corrie

00:59:41 Do the opposite of what? Human etiquette? [Laughter]

Athena

00:59:46 Yeah. All right. So, so we know all about now I'm really glad that I have a full understanding of the nutritional needs of zombies because that, I mean if we do have a zombie apocalypse, like perhaps we could provide the zombies with their needed nutritional supplements in some sort of form that is not a human brain, right? Like it could be like-put it into like a, maybe not a pill but maybe like some sort of block like here's your, your brain ration for the day or brain-like substance-could we like grow brains specifically to feed to zombies, 'cause we're like growing meat now, right?

Corrie

01:00:27 Yeah. Yeah. So I don't see why we couldn't grow something that resembles brain tissue. And I mean the whole concept of true blood was a blood drink for vampires. So why not make something for the zombies and we were talking about, you know, businesses wanting to maintain their profits, well they'd inevitably have a profit forever because they would be so reliant on this replacement meal. [Laughter]

01:00:57 The BRE. Or BRM.

Dave

01:00:58 So what would be a good a brain substitute? Like what food has the same sort of amounts of fat? If we were going to...

Athena

01:01:07 Not grow it in a mad science lab?

Dave

01:01:10 Yeah. Like if, cause I imagine it's expensive to grow brains, but it's, there's some other, could we just give them big vats of butter or something? Like if they really just want fat or lard?

Corrie

01:01:21 Yeah, maybe. I wonder if you could take the individual components and then mix it with, you know, like some gelatin and you can even put it in a brain mold if you want. [Laughter] Then you have this gelatinous thing with all the independent nutrients added in. So I mean if you think about animal research is how they make animal diets. It's just pelletized food from the raw ingredients all added together. Maybe with a little bit of flavor. I think the one thing that will be hard is getting all the brain hormones in there and keeping them stable.

Athena

01:01:53 Right, right. So I mean, 'cause I usually, I have to admit I'm not like a zombie movie aficionado, but I rarely see zombies eating brains of non-humans. Right? They're going for the human brain. So that suggests that the signaling, the hormones, like all of that might be a really important part of what they're going for. Yeah. You can't just feed them an animal, a nonhuman animal and be like, there's your brain.

Corrie

01:02:22 And then there's the show 'iZombie' where she eats the brain and then can take on like personality traits and like the memories of the person. Maybe they're interested in our memories because they want to have contact to humans. I don't know.

Athena

01:02:39 Mmm. Right. So all of-getting all of our, all of our signaling molecules and mmm-hmm... All right. I love how we've gotten so science fiction right now. So we're going to go a little further. Science fiction. So, so what would happen to all of us in the world if we take like how, how much of an effect food has on us now or dieting has on us, like these ways that food and diet influence us and we just ramped it up with like, you know, an order of magnitude higher influence that food has on us. Like, I mean, I guess for one we'd be like all over that box of food in the corner. Right. Like just stuffing our faces or Dave would. And we'd probably be like, okay Dave, we're just going to let you go for it. [Laughter]

Dave

01:03:28 I didn't have a big enough lunch today, I think. May have been-may have been part of the issue.

Athena

01:03:33 Okay.

Dave

01:03:33 I may, I may never have a big enough lunch. I may just always be...

Athena

01:03:38 All right. Well um—

Dave

01:03:42 I like cookies, so... [laughter]

Athena

01:03:42 Nothing wrong with that.

Dave

01:03:44 They're a 'sometimes food'.

Athena

01:03:46 So like if we take that, you know, that influence that food has and that diet has on us and we just amplify it. Like what happens to the world?

Corrie

01:03:58 I think the highest would be really high and the lows would be really low. [Laughter]

Athena

01:04:07 Like what are we, are we all just like eating-but not, I mean not everybody always wants to eat all the time. Right. But I don't know, I can't even really imagine what exactly it would be other than maybe for a little while everybody would be just eating lots of chocolate cake and cheesecake and stuff like that.

Dave

01:04:24 So this was a good question 'cause like if I were to just totally just be like I am going to just eat all the food I see all the time. Right. Because I think I could for a while.

Athena

01:04:37 Okay.

Dave

01:04:39 I guess at some point I'd start to get sick. Right? I would like—

Corrie

01:04:42 Yeah, it'd be like in the movie or the... Well, is a documentary. The 'Supersize Me' where he kept supersizing his meals and then it's like-

Dave

01:04:50 Oh, yeah.

Corrie

01:04:51 You're going to eat all the food and yeah, I think eventually you just feel gross and yucky and you might actually crave like a sprig of broccoli or something... Maybe.

Dave

01:05:03 So, so basically even if we just threw sort of social constraints to the wind, eventually our body would have mechanisms that would sort of kick in to keep us from just eating all the time?

Athena

01:05:14 So, but what if we like just ramp up all of the like craving systems, everything like way, way up. So I mean maybe eventually that would kick in, but like what else would happen before it did, like to society?

Dave

01:05:27 If every, if this happens to everybody—

Athena

01:05:29 Everybody. Everybody is—

Dave

01:05:30 If suddenly everybody is just eating [Athena agrees] everything they can eat.

Athena

01:05:33 Or that they want to eat. Like you'd have to like say, okay, here's your baseline for like what kinds of foods you like to eat, how you like to eat, when you'd like to eat, and then you just turn it all way up. So does that mean some people would be eating way more than other people, too, right? Because some people have more cravings in general. Some people have them under control, right? And some people just don't have as many cravings.

Corrie

01:05:56 Is there a plentiful supply of food in this situation?

Dave

01:05:59 I think it's with the current supply, right? That's you're talking about or—

Athena

01:06:02 Yeah, yeah. So, we'd run out of food?

Corrie

01:06:06 We could maybe, yeah. If it was guaranteed to be around forever and then maybe—

Athena

01:06:11 All the vending machines would be empty... [Laughter]

Corrie

01:06:17 Except the ones with lettuce.

Athena

01:06:23 So we'd have like, uh, you know, like the food supply would be super short, at least like for snack foods that people tend to crave. And then like the vegetable aisle and fruit aisle would still be like okay. So people would eventually end up in those aisles after they ate all the cookies and junk food or?

Dave

01:06:44 Or would we all just be sick at that point? And so, then nobody's...

Athena

01:06:49 Right. And if, I mean, if everybody's like just eating and eating, like, then maybe people aren't going to work, including people who are making it so that we have a food supply...

Corrie

01:07:00 And that could get dangerous. That sounds like a slippery slope.

Athena

01:07:05 Well, and then like anybody who's making foods that are snack foods, they'd probably eat them before they can even get to the grocery store or 7-11 or whatever.

Dave

01:07:16 So how long would it be before we resorted to cannibalism? [Laughter]

Corrie

01:07:24 That's a good question.

Dave

01:07:26 Maybe, maybe two weeks?

Athena

01:07:29 I would hope it would be longer than that, but I dunno, I'll lock myself in here with my stash in the corner. [Laughter]

Corrie

01:07:38 Or if you're unaffected than you could just go for all the fruits and veggies while everyone else is going for their vice foods. [Athena agrees] And then you can hoard them, too, and get out unscathed because they'd be like, oh, she only has an apple. Where are my Ho Hos? [laughter]

Dave

01:07:57 That's true.

Athena

01:07:58 Yeah. All right. So there would be some sort of a potentially a breakdown of our like food supply of snack foods. Is that sort of the consensus for the food-pocalypse?

Corrie

01:08:12 That's possible for that, yeah, cause I'm not that people would be overdoing it on the fresh and healthy stuff.

Dave

01:08:20 Interesting. 01:08:21 So what's sort of the ideal mutualism scenario between us and food? What do you think like, 'cause we've talked in other of our podcasts about sort of-rather than parisitic sort of relationships, more sort of symbiotic ones. So do you think, um, do you think it's the food plate you were talking about? People just—

Athena

01:08:48 We live in harmony with our food?

Dave

01:08:50 Yeah, exactly.

Corrie

01:08:53 Living in harmony with our food might—

Athena

01:08:57 Or eat it. [Laughter]

Corrie

01:09:02 Perhaps maybe going back to our roots in terms of agriculture—

Athena

01:09:09 Like potatoes?

Corrie

01:09:10 Maybe yeah, some potatoes.

Athena

01:09:13 Sorry.

Corrie

01:09:14 Um, well, and I think that maybe this goes back to our gut microbiome too, you know, they're, they crave certain things that a healthy microbiome craves things that most humans don't do a great job of eating, which are dietary fibers, polyphenols, things that come from plants—

Athena

01:09:34 Cookies, things that come from cookies. Sorry. [Laughter]

Corrie

01:09:41 And so maybe taking the view of what can I provide for myself or get from a store that is going to feed me but also feed them. So we know that half of our plates supposed to be fruits and vegetables and then a quarter grains. Those are all coming from the earth in some way and maybe the less processed the better. But I mean I purposely try to eat processed just to prove to people that you can be healthy and still have some processed food. So, I mean, I really like granola bars and things that probably have a lot of added sugar, but I don't eat them all the time. Um, but there's also a lot of fiber in there and other things thatmaybe the bugs like—

Athena

01:10:23 'Cause you're like giving us the example of granola bars is like the junk food that you eat. Kind of?

Corrie

01:10:28 Oh, well no, I can't think of like things that I do-I really like cookies, actually. So the law school Downtown has the best cookies ever. They're the perfect, like chewy, but like crunchy outside. But you know when you get like the grittiness from the sugar in the cookie. Oh my gosh. So good.

Athena

01:10:48 All right.

Corrie

01:10:49 So that's my vice and—

Athena

01:10:50 And you also make delicious brownies.

Corrie

01:10:53 Yeah. I like brownies, too.

Athena

01:10:54 I know because I've eaten them. They're so good. Yeah. Sorry Dave.

Dave

01:10:59 It's okay.

Corrie

01:11:02 I guess I don't consider those as processed though 'cause they're always like from a bakery, so maybe they don't have as many preservatives and like other things. I know there's a lot of fear of preservatives, but they actually serve a pretty important function in the food market and our ability to actually have food available to us. So, sometimes it's a little bit of a conundrum, balancing all the competing forces that affect our food environment, but—

Athena

01:11:30 Right. Yeah, so if there's, you know, one thing that we can do to kind of regain that positive kind of control over our eating. Like the sort of intentional like, "I'm eating this because it's something that I'm deciding to do" as opposed to like, "I'm eating this because it's in front of me and I can't help myself". Like is there a piece of advice or an approach that you would recommend to people?

Corrie

01:11:57 I think probably the first thing I'd say is: eat breakfast every day, because if you have a good breakfast, you kickstart your metabolism and you're on a good foot, than where you're less likely to have cravings later in the day because you got things started on the right foot.

Athena

01:12:14 So what's a good breakfast? What's an example of a good breakfast?

Corrie

01:12:17 You know, honestly I think the literature shows that just eating something of substantial caloric content, so like don't just eat a piece of fruit, maybe have fruit with something that has a little bit of fat and grains and protein in it so that you're kind of getting all of the major macro nutrients. Um, there was a study I think when I was in grad school actually, that compared to more standard breakfast of like cereal and milk to eating a piece of chocolate cake for breakfast. And of course you can imagine the media headlines, "Do You Eat Cake for Breakfast?" But what they found is that people ate less throughout the day regardless of what they ate. And they were matched for caloric content. So it's not like they were getting more from the cake than they were the cereal and the milk. But either way it was just the act of eating first thing in the morning and spacing out your meals and not grazing, you know, maybe all day. Sometimes you lose track of like what you're actually putting in your mouth. So like having designated time of like, this is my schedule, this is when I eat, and invite other people to eat with you.

Spend time talking and enjoying the social aspects that food can provide for us of bringing people together. Um, I think that's often missed. You know now, we like eating a Big Mac or driving down the road to get like little Susie to soccer or whatever it is that we're doing and we forget that food is embedded in culture, too. And it is so important for bringing communities together. Potlucks and picnics and all these things that people don't always do anymore. And I think the social aspects have a really important role and then just focusing on variety. You know, if you look at your plate and it's all browns, probably not a good sign for your overall health in the long run. So maybe like just focus, adding a new color every once in awhile and eventually before you know it, you're plate will be a rainbow. And then that's when you pretty much...

Athena

01:14:18 Do you want like a natural color? Not like—

Corrie

01:14:21 Oh, right.

Dave

01:14:22 Just add a bunch of skittles. [Laughter]

Athena

01:14:29 All right, so if-so it's better to eat chocolate cake for breakfast than nothing. Probably?

Corrie

01:14:34 Yeah, I think it's just the act of eating something and getting your body going.

Athena

01:14:38 And then eat with other people instead of by yourself? [Corrie agrees]

Dave

01:14:43 All right.

Athena

01:14:44 Those seem like totally doable things to me.

Dave

01:14:49 I'm gonna try to it, try eating breakfast.

Athena

01:14:51 We just need to go get chocolate cake. So.

Dave

01:14:52 'Cause I actually I do eat, I do-I've been just eating fruit in the mornings and then I'm hungry throughout the day, so I'm going to try eating a more substantial breakfast. Probably start with like oatmeal instead of—

Corrie

01:15:04 Oh, yeah, you can put the fruit in the oatmeal.

Dave

01:15:06 Yup. And then, but then I won't have, will that have enough fat? It has. I put milk in the oatmeal, so.

Corrie

01:15:12 Yeah, that'd be good.

Dave

01:15:13 Okay, so alright.

Athena

01:15:14 You could add some butter. [Laughter]

Dave

01:15:18 You know, I've had-oatmeal with butter is really delicious. So yeah.

Athena

01:15:20 Yeah. Oh, um, so the butter in coffee thing, like is that-why, why that? Why do people put butter in coffee? Is Bulletproof Coffee? Is it, this is just like a fad?

Corrie

01:15:30 It's apart of the Keto Diet.

Athena

01:15:31 Oh, okay.

Corrie

01:15:31 That's just like they're breakfast, getting more calories, but also, I just can't imagine what that does to your GI. [Athena agrees] Like you're lubing it up with the butter and then you just consumed caffeine in the coffee, which is a gastric irritant. So it's a little—

Athena

01:15:45 Would it be a good idea—

Dave

01:15:46 But the rest of you is so happy.

Athena

01:15:47 Yes.

Dave

01:15:48 You've got butter and coffee and what more do you want?

Athena

01:15:51 Should we be feeding that like Bulletproof Coffee to zombies, if in the case of the Zombie Apocalypse?

Corrie

01:15:57 I don't know that I'd want to caffeinate them. I'd get, maybe decaf with the butter, that they may like the butter.

Athena

01:16:02 Yeah. I'm just thinking strategy for in case of the Zombie Apocalypse.

Dave

01:16:05 I mean that might be the difference between the old zombies and the new zombies. They switched away from decaf, so.

Corrie

01:16:12 Or maybe they're eating humans that have overdone it on energy drinks. I don't know.

Athena

01:16:17 Oh, that's awesome. Well Corrie, thank you so much for joining us today.

Corrie

01:16:22 Thanks for having me.

Athena

01:16:24 Thanks Dave.

Dave

01:16:26 Sure, thanks! And thanks Athena for providing us with cookies.

Athena

01:16:29 Oh, you're most welcome.

OUTRO

01:16:33 ['Psychological' by LEMI plays]

Athena

01:17:49 Thank you to the Department of Psychology and to ASU for helping to make this podcast possible. Thank you to the President's Office for supporting the Interdisciplinary Cooperation Initiative and to the Lincoln Center for Applied Ethics for really just supporting everything 'zombie', which is so awesome. Thanks to my lab, the Aktipis Lab, also known as the Cooperation and Conflict Lab for helping with this podcast in so many ways. I can't even name them. And thanks to the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance for helping to support this podcast, as well. If you are looking for us on social media, we're on Twitter and Instagram as 'zombifiedpod' and on Patrion we are 'zombified'. Our website is zombified.org. Thanks to Tal Rom for doing the sound for the podcast, and to Neil Smith for the awesome illustrations for the podcast. We are so lucky to have your brains helping to make this podcast awesome. So thank you to all of you and to everyone who has ever shared their brains with me.

01:19:02 I love brains and I love sharing. And so sharing brains is like the best thing for me. So, um, I'm gonna reciprocate and share my brains, so at the end of every episode I offer something from my brain, whether it's a story or a wild speculation about something or a connection to my work. Um, and so today for the episode about diet and zombification, I have to mention a few little things about my work. And, um, I also want to say this whole thing about whether cravings are microbially driven. We're going to have a whole episode where we talk about that for a lot of the episode, um with Joe Alcock, um, coming up. And so that is super exciting. And um, yeah, so the connection to my work is actually me and Joe Alcock and Carlo Maley. We published a paper a couple of years ago where we really put together this idea that microbes are under selective pressure to manipulate their hosts to eat stuff that's good for them and maybe even eat stuff that is bad for their competitors.

01:20:24 So if you think about it from the perspective of the microbe, they are under selective pressure to manipulate us. Now, whether they actually evolve to tap into our nervous systems in order to do this or is just sort of a, a happy byproduct of other things we don't really know yet. But the fact is they have a lot of ways of tapping into our nervous system. For example, through our vagus nerve. They also can change our taste receptors. They can produce toxins that alter our moods, they can even produce analogs of neurotransmitters and hunger and satiety hormones. So, so they got a lot of ways of pushing our buttons and they also have a evolutionary motive to potentially be changing our eating behavior for their benefit. So, so that is the connection to my work that I wanted to mention. But I also want to mention just, um, a wild speculation, which is those of you who know me, um, you know, that I am really into fermenting stuff.

01:21:48 I started with Kombucha and then started doing sourdough and then started pickling and now I've started making yogurt. Um, and so yeah, but the thing is I just said I'm make them, but I don't actually make them; the microbes make them. I just feed the microbes that make them. And so I've wondered, and this is completely and totally wild speculation, but is it possible that the microbes are actually contributing in some way to me wanting to make the foods, because that involves me feeding them? Right? So even though it's not like me feeding them inside my body, like it might be with like a cravings explanation, it's still me feeding them and feeding them outside my body. So, you know, is it possible that maybe they have some effect on my behavior and my motivation, like from outside my body? Right? Like, could it be that they're releasing some sort of factors that I'm you know, picking up on with like my chemo receptors? Like, you know, my sense of smell, um, or my taste when I'm eating them, are they tapping into my reward system somehow? Anyway, that's my wild speculation for the episode. So, thank you for listening to Zombified, your source for fresh brains.

OUTRO

01:23:28 ['Psychological' by LEMI plays]