Who's on your Z-team? Cam Carlson

Dave

00:01:04 What's w--, what's wild is we recorded this what four, five months ago? And it seemed like this was all fantasy, right? This is all like, oh, hypothetically in an apocalypse scenario, you have to decide who you're going to be friends with--

Athena

00:01:18 Yeah. [Dave laughs]

Dave

00:01:18 --and how much you can do on your own. So, uh, yeah, it's really, it's really interesting because we talk about sort of the risks, the rewards. We talk about the ethical questions of, do you want to ally, you know, ally with people who are, uh, have different views about what's acceptable food sources and things like that?

Athena

00:01:45 [Laughter] Yeah. Yeah. We had some, uh, interesting discussion about what is and isn't okay to eat. Um, I'm not going to spoil it for you guys. You're going to have to listen to Dave make his, um, incriminating discussion about, um, what he would eat or not [Athena laughs].

Dave

00:02:02 I mean, I was going to say, you're going to have to tune in to hear Cam and Athena express their sort of naive idealistic views [Athena laughs] on what they wouldn't eat. So, um. [Dave laughs]

Athena

00:02:16 Certainly depends on your perspective.

Dave

00:02:18 Yeah. So, but, uh, yeah, no, I think it's really interesting and I think it's, uh, I think it raises a lot of really good questions that we're still trying to figure out. So...

Athena

00:02:27 Agreed. And um, just by the way before we get started with this episode, I'm Athena Aktipis, I'm a psychology professor at ASU and I'm also the chair of the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance.

Dave

00:02:39 Oh right. And I am Dave Lundberg Kenrick. I'm the Media Outreach Program Manager at Arizona State University, uh, and uh, brain enthusiast. And so, yeah. And so this is Zombified. So...

Athena

00:02:53 Yeah. So let-- oh, should we talk about ZAMM?

Dave

00:02:58 We should.

Athena

00:02:59 We should talk about ZAMM [Dave agrees] before we jump into this episode.

Dave

00:03:04 [Dave laughs] Umm, so, uh, at the very least we should tell people what ZAMM is. ZAMM is for people who are looking to, um, connect with other people virtually sort of, and learn from a lot of really interesting experts. It's our, uh, conference that's coming up.

Athena

00:03:18 Yeah. It's like a highly mutated academic meeting. It's just turned monstrous.

Dave

00:03:24 And we'll have-- so we're going to have talks, we're going to have workshops where you can learn all sorts of different things. And uh...

Athena

00:03:31 Lots of TV shows actually. So we've created a whole bunch of television shows on Channel Zed which is sort of our concept for this meeting and is going to be just our video concept for Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance moving forward. And so, uh, the conference is not just going to be traditional talks. It's also going to be amazing, um, academics and other scholars and researchers and writers talking with us and our other hosts on shows that range from, you know, how to eat in the zombie apocalypse and cook in the zombie apocalypse to, um, watching clips from zombie movies and TV shows and analyzing them, um, to late night brains, which is kind of our, uh, video, um, version of a lot of what we do with Zombified, but with a shorter talks with guests and multiple guests at the same time.

Dave

00:04:32 Yup. So everyone should come and they should invite whoever they trust enough to consider a friend.

Athena

00:04:38 That's right. Yeah. You can find more information about the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Meeting at zombiemed.org and Channel Zed is channelzed.org, and we actually have a whole bunch of awesome material up there already. We've been doing live streams every Monday at 10:30am in the morning. Um, you can join those and be part of our live Q and A.

Dave

00:05:02 Sounds good. So they should register now.

Athena

00:05:04 Yes. Register now. Um, the meeting is October 15th through 18th, so there's still time.

Dave

00:05:11 Cool. Alright!

Athena

00:05:12 Well I think we're ready, yeah?

Dave

00:05:13 Yeah!

Athena

00:05:13 So let's hear from this week's fresh brain, Cam Carlson.

Intro

00:05:20 [Psychological by Lemi]

Athena

00:05:56 Hey Cam. Welcome.

Cam

00:05:57 Thank you. Glad to be here.

Athena

00:05:59 It's great to have you, uh, would you, uh, introduce yourself in your own words [Cam agrees] for all of us?

Cam

00:06:05 Um, my name's Cameron Carlson. I am the media director and board of ad-- one of the board of advisors for the Zombie Research Society. Um, that's who I am, yeah.

Athena

00:06:15 Yeah, you're, you're more than that though. Right? [Everyone laughs]

Cam

00:06:20 Well true, I guess, I mean, I mean, you know. So, uh, I'm an active duty officer in the United States military. Umm, I am currently with, uh, Second Fleet, doing an operations job and, uh, got into zombies back when I was doing my, uh, thesis for my master's degree. I got hooked up with the Zombie Research Society then when I was doing a, uh, uh, a collaboration of public and private, uh, disaster relief for my thesis. And so the zombie apocalypse played directly into that and that's how I kind of got started with this Zombie Research Society. Uh, interviewed Matt and then I asked him if he would like me to become part of the society from the survival aspect. He said, yes, and been doing it ever since. And, uh, just finished up my dissertation for, um, epidemiology.

Athena

00:07:03 Awesome.

Cam

00:07:03 Yeah.

Dave

00:07:03 So what is the Zombie Research Society?

Cam

00:07:05 So the Zombie Research Society is a society that is dedicated to the research and study of how the zombie apocalypse would come about and how to deal with it. So the response aspect, the survival, the weapons, the science behind it, the theories behind it, all that good stuff. It's kind of like the, uh, the YouTube for the written word, you know, you could spend all day and just go down a rabbit hole and you'll never, you'll never reach the end of it. So that's kind of what we do.

Dave

00:07:32 Cool.

Athena

00:07:33 So how long has Zombie Research Society been around?

Cam

00:07:37 Long time. Um, as far as I can remember, it's been around for about 10 years. It really hit its, about 10 years. It really hits height during the zombie craze back in like 2008, 2009 with the big zombie movies are coming out and all that stuff, and, um, been rolling ever since. It started out with one person and now it's grown into a lot of people, a lot of advisors.

Athena

00:08:01 Yeah. It seems like, um, zombies, they've got some staying power, right? Like the whole zombie craze. It didn't just die.

Cam

00:08:10 Vampires come and go, but zombies are here to stay.

Athena

00:08:10 Yeah. [Everyone laughs]

Dave

00:08:13 They never die. Zombies never die.

Cam

00:08:16 Yeah, zombies never die. And if they do, they come back to life, so there you go. [Dave laughs]

Athena

00:08:19 Yeah. So can you, uh, tell us a little bit more about like how zombies actually played into the work that you did for your dissertation?

Cam

00:08:29 Absolutely. Uh, well, so the dissertation, not so much, but the thesis absolutely. The dissertation, so the dissertation was a-- it was almost an extension of my thesis.

Athena

00:08:39 Okay.

Cam

00:08:39 So the thesis, uh, for my master's program was all about a public and private, uh, disaster response from militarily and what the military's role was. As I went through that, and was doing all the research, I stumbled upon the Zombie Research Society. And in my head, I was like, well, zombie re-- or the zombie apocalypse is nothing more than an analog for any major disaster. If you're prepared for the zombie apocalypse, you're prepared for everything. So I went with that and I started going down the hole of if we had a zombie apocalypse, what would the steps be? What would happen during it, during the initial stages and what would happen afterwards? Where would the response come in? How would we respond? Would it be effective? That's kind of where that whole thing played into the thesis. And then as I did the dissertation phase, I kind-- I built on the thesis almost, but I took it a step further. I took it into a pandemic realm where it is a, it's a lose-lose situation for everybody involved.

It's a, what I'm calling "chimera virus" as a, it's two viruses living in symbiosis where one presents at one time and the other one lays dormant, but still you're still as a person you're infected or you're contagious. Um, and then at the right time after the doctors have gone through, and they've found that virus and they've treated the closest alligator to the ship, in this case, I think it was smallpox I referenced, that Ebola is still living inside you, still being contagious. And then it presents at a moment's notice and just explodes on the scene and it just rapidly expands throughout the world. And so that's kind of how I kind of branched the two.

Dave

00:10:14 Interesting.

Athena

00:10:14 So f-for you, like the, the idea of the zombie apocalypse, like, is very readily translatable to a lot of things that have to do with pandemics that currently exist or have been an issue in the past.

Cam

00:10:26 Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, and if you're prepared for one you're prepared for everything. It's just, it's kind of a morbid thing to think about, um, especially from a pandemic realm. But yeah, absolutely.

Athena

00:10:37 Yeah. And so what, what happens, like, in those early stages of, like, when people are starting to realize that there is some sort of a threat that say is an infectious threat?

Cam

00:10:50 Okay. So, and I say this with all due love and respect to everybody out there, but one of the biggest issues that I've found is that people do not read credible sources. With the age of social media and the age of, you know, technology and being able to get your word out there, you have people that are, you know, self-proclaimed experts. Uh, not listening to the CDC, not listening to the USAMRIID, not listening to government officials, but rather, you know, they say, "hey, it's coming, this is what it is" without any real knowledge, and that creates fear mongering. So what's going to happen in the initial stages? Fear, panic, chaos. Um, once people begin to realize what this is, that if it's a pathogen, in my case, and you know, in my, in my scenario, uh, that, you know, all of a sudden you can be infected and not know it and then die five days later, total bummer, uh, or a zombie apocalypse where people are changing and now your best friend is trying to kill you! Well, there's gotta be a lot of, like, fear and panic. Um, initially, what's going to happen is people are gonna try to figure out what this is. They're trying to run tests.

They're trying to place it into a category that they know. When they find out that that's not in the category, that they know they're going to go to different measures. They're going to start testing for the exotic stuff: Ebola, you know, um, yellow fe-- not yellow fever, um, like the hantavirus, things like that, like the hemorrhagics or the exotics. Um, and then once that doesn't happen, once that comes up, you know, nil, then they're, they're at a standstill. But by this point it's already too late. This is probably a week. This is probably two weeks. And now as the infection starts to spread, the US military rolls in and they, what do they do? They try and-- uh, quarantine and contain. That might initially work where you poll, okay, you're infected, you're infected, you're infected, you're exhibiting symptoms, you're gonna go over here. You know, like every zombie movie you've ever seen quarantine control. Once those measures break down, because it becomes out of control, the US military does what everybody else does. They tuck tail and run because they have a family and their survival instinct kicks in. Now you're talking about complete breakdown in infrastructure.

So once the infrastructure starts to break down probably in a few months, depending on how fast this thing spreads, the infrastructure of the United States will break down. And then now you're talking about everybody's on their own. It's all for all. You know, it's, it's vigilantes at this point and now it's just survive on your own. Nobody's coming to help you. And that's where things get a little sporty. [Athena and Dave laugh] It's everybody for theirselves now, and it's the wild west, because now that you know that nobody's coming to help you, the fear and the panic began to diminish, because now you realize as a human being, you can do whatever you want to do. There are no laws which becomes even more dangerous because there are no laws. There's nothing to stop you from doing anything.

Athena

00:13:30 Except for maybe, hopefully your humanity.

Cam

00:13:32 Hopefully.

Athena

00:13:32 If there's any of that left at that point. [Dave laughs]

Cam

00:13:35 That's-- so that would be almost the natural progression of things in a short, short version of it.

Athena

00:13:41 Uh huh.

Dave

00:13:42 I have a question. So since this is, since these are sort of hypothetical scenarios, right? How do you go about researching what would happen?

Cam

00:13:51 That's a good question. Uh, so if you, what, in a lot of the, in a lot of the, um, the research I did was I looked at disasters as a whole, and I began to draw conclusions and assumptions based upon what was the response to that. And let's say for instance, a, a hurricane. So Dorian. I looked at Dorian and I looked at what was the response from the US military and the public. Now granted a hurricane is an isolated incident.

Dave

00:14:18 Sure.

Cam

00:14:18 It can affect widespread areas, but once it's done, it's done. It's not going to die and then come back to life and then it's going to then destroy the whole region again. [Athena and Dave laugh]. That's not how that works. Um, but, if you look at the responses to those disasters, you can then draw inferences to how the US military and the people in general would respond to a massive pandemic.

Dave

00:14:37 Okay.

Cam

00:14:38 You also look at, I mean, when I was starting to do this, I looked at the National Response Framework that is written by, uh, FEMA and Department of Homeland Security about what to do during unknown pandemic or an unknown pathogen. And you know what it said, we have a plan.

Dave

00:14:53 Okay.

Cam

00:14:53 That's it. I don't know what plan that is.

Dave

00:14:55 Oh that's it? Just--

Cam

00:14:55 We have a plan, there are plans in place. That's it.

Dave

00:15:00 Alright.

Cam

00:15:00 Um, it's kind of terrifying. You know, like, okay, we have no idea what we're going to do. We've got a plan! We don't know what it is yet. We have a plan.

Athena

00:15:05 How many years have you been trying to figure out what that plan actually is?

Cam

00:15:09 I'd say about four years [Athena laughs] since I started this whole process? Um, and so that's, you kind of have to go, y-you can't, there is no, there is no precedent for that.

Dave

00:15:21 Okay.

Cam

00:15:21 You know, we know that we have, we know that in 1993, 1994, uh, Ebola Reston made it to, obviously, Reston, Virginia. And it infected that entire monkey quarantine area, but it never transmitted to humans. So we saw the CDC respond, but before the CDC responded, they had to go through USAMRIID who they were fighting. There was fighting between the two about who's going to get the response first. It was like a week, like three days to a week. And if that had ever mutated and got out?

Athena

00:15:47 What is USAMRIID?

Cam

00:15:49 I'm sorry, USAMRIID is the United States Army, uh, United States Army Medical Infectious Disease people, Infectious Institute. Uh, and they're basically the army's CDC. They have all the biological response capabilities and they're one of the only, one of two places in United States that has a, um, a hot agent, like a level four hot zone area. So it's pretty cool, pretty terrifying, but they also have them in the CDC split the, um, the pathogens, at least the pathogens. So when it came down to researching about how this is going to happen, you literally have to take past experiences and then you have to translate them into, um, what you think would happen. And then from that, you have to triangulate it with already existing literature and then interviews. And then you have to say, okay, when I brought up, for instance, the whole, the "chimera virus" thing that I'm talking about, when I brought that up to people, I said, are we prepared for this? And they're like, "what's a chimera virus"? No one's ever thought about it. Like, no one's ever said, yeah, this is going to happen.

If I had said, what do you think about it an Ebola attack, attack on the United States, it'd be like, "eh, it'll probably never happen". No one's ready for this and that's why it was very, it was very eye opening to see all these things that are potentially out there that no one's thought about.

Athena

00:16:58 Mmhmm. So how do you even prepare for something that is completely unprecedented?

Cam

00:17:02 To expect the unexpected?

Athena

00:17:03 Yeah.

Cam

00:17:04 Just read. Be knowledgeable about what you have, uh, be knowledgeable about if you're in a place let's say Virginia, or in a major populated area, LA, even Phoenix in some places, um, understand what you can do as, as a singular unit, like a singular entity. If you know that you're, there's a pathogen out there and that's been documented, what are you gonna do? You're gonna stay in place. Don't go outside, wait until things pass. Cause if you don't know who's infected or what's not, or what if this thing is spreading rapidly, if it's airborne or not, wait until you hear it on the radio. You know, have a plan, have food, have shelter, but this is the same thing that it goes back to the zombie apocalypse. It's the same thing. It's a hurricane. It's a tornado. Have the basic essentials for you know, two, three weeks until you have the ground truth. Until officials have said, this is what it is. This is what we recommend. Because leaving the safety of your home, you know, you're exposing yourself to risk.

Athena

00:17:56 So that instinct to just like run and get the hell out [Cam agrees] when something is like, you got to suppress that and be like, no, stay in place, wait, learn what's actually happening. Cause like where, where are you going to go?

Cam

00:18:10 Exactly. Where are you going to go? Like, I know where I would go, but I mean, I would stay in my house number one, but if I had to go some place it be away from people and unfortunately some place, some places don't have that ability. LA does not have the ability to get out on a quick notice in a nonpopulated area, unless you're on the fringes. Get away from people.

Dave

00:18:30 I don't even know if we do, like the I17 and the 87, they get packed on a Sunday. Right? Like, so...

Cam

00:18:36 So in your case, in here in the desert, you have a great opportunity to just pick up and walk. [Dave surprised]. Like I would just be walking to the desert. And be like, well, you know, I'd rather take my chances in the desert than, you know, me dying in pool of soup on my floor. [Everyone laughs] That's just my personal opinion. I'd rather take my chances with the snakes and scorpions because at least, you know, at least any, any decent like person that has anything about them that says I'm going to live through this experience, will find a way to live.

Dave

00:19:03 Okay.

Cam

00:19:03 It just takes that kind of drive. It's like, if you want to live, you'll live.

Athena

00:19:08 But you also need water.

Dave

00:19:08 Yeah, yeah.

Cam

00:19:08 True.

New Speaker

00:19:08 And around here, like, that can be an issue.

Cam

00:19:13 It could be. It could be, which is again, you know, I always, I talk about on some of the podcasts that I've done is that, you know, pick up a book, pick up like how like a book called how to survive in the woods or how to live in the woods,

Dave

00:19:23 Oh I love that book.

Cam

00:19:23 It's a great book.

Athena

00:19:24 Except in the desert. A lot of that stuff doesn't apply.

Cam

00:19:27 But it does. It does though! It does, it does! [Athena laughs] Shelter-building, water-finding, it all applies. It's just, you have to know how to use it.

Athena

00:19:33 Okay. But the ecology is, is different. Right?

Cam

00:19:34 Is much different. Absolutely.

Athena

00:19:35 I mean, I feel like so much of the, you know, survivalist stuff is like in the woods in the woods, but then it's like, what about us here in the desert? [Athena and Dave laugh]

Cam

00:19:45 Absolutely. No. Yeah. You're absolutely correct. That's, it's a major change. Um, I mean, trust me, but I would rather deal with 120 degrees, dry heat rather than the 90 degree, you know, a hundred percent humidity in Virginia. [Everyone agrees] So, I mean, just read a book, it really comes down to that. It's like, if you have the basic instincts to survive, plus you have a little bit of knowledge, you can do a lot.

Athena

00:20:07 Hmm. But there's a lot of fear I think too, right? About like, you know, just if you're in a situation and all the infrastructure that you're used to is not in place, it just, I mean, that I think can feel completely overwhelming, right? Like how, how would you even function if the electricity went out for a long time, right? Like what people are dealing with in California.

Cam

00:20:30 Yeah. You're absolutely correct. Fear is a huge motivator and people do irrational things when they're scared, like leaving and then they cause more problems. Looting and you rescue that 65 inch plasma. Uh. [laughter]

Athena

00:20:46 But there's no power.

Cam

00:20:47 But there's no power so it doesn't matter. Uh, but no, yeah, fear makes people do irrational things and to create-- and that creates more issues for everybody else.

Athena

00:20:56 Why do you think that is? Why do people do things that are irrational when they're afraid?

Cam

00:21:05 Honestly, it could be, I think it can be a number of a couple of, number, number of things. It could be, you know, a naturalization to movies. Let's think about this for a second. [Athena follows] Any movie that you've seen, zombie movie, lets say, right, what is the first thing people do? They are running around, crazy, breaking into things, trying to get out of the city. That's one reason, you know, naturalization or, or normalization to that kind of response. It could be, uh, they don't know any better, that all they know is that a crisis is happening and what have they been told: "get out of a bad situation". You know, the fight or flight, you know, you're going to flee a bad situation. Okay. Well that means get out and go join the masses, you know, and become sheep basically. Um.

Athena

00:21:47 I wonder if maybe part of it is like a, a scale issue, right? Like we're so used to things that are stressful or things that might make us fearful that are localized. Right? And if it, and if that's what you're used to then yeah, get the fuck out. But if it's everywhere, then you can't just run and get away. In fact, leaving where you're at could be the biggest risk. [Cam agrees] If you're somewhere that's relatively secure.

Cam

00:22:15 But most people don't realize where-- most people don't realize the gravity of the situation. They know that their little world is being threatened.

Athena

00:22:20 Yeah. Right. And so part of what you're saying is like, you have to resist the urge to just run away right away, get some more information about the scale of the problem and then make a strategy after you understand the scale.

Cam

00:22:35 Absolutely. Well, you make a strategy before and then alter it to make sure it's valid after.

Athena

00:22:40 Mmhmm. So how would you get that information actually, like, in a zombie apocalypse of what the scale is? I mean, are communication systems still going to be working and like, you know.

Cam

00:22:51 Yeah. Yeah. So, communication systems will still be working for, depending on how bad this is probably about a week, right? You'll still have the radio. You'll still have your cell phones. As long as it's charged, you still have your cell phones. And you know, people in today, social media there'll be updating all the time. And you know, the world is coming to an end, repent. [Athena laughs] Um, but you'll know for about a week of w-what's going on. And once if the communications cease, just the cease and the lack of communications coming out of the federal government or out of an agency is a temperament itself. And you we've lost comms. Okay. There is something egregious happening. [Athena follows] So the lack of comms can be a temper if you have comms and then it comes out as this is what it is, it'll give you directions. And then you based upon, you based upon the common sense versus the directions, okay, what is it telling me to do? If you're, if you're still with it, you're not stressed out and your mind hasn't gone black yet or you overloaded, then you'll have to go, "Okay, these are the instructions that I'm being given.

Let's weigh the pros and cons of actually doing this." I have, you know, let's say, you know, I have kids, I have a dog, I have a cat, you know, whatever. How is that going to affect everybody? That's just me.

Athena

00:24:05 And maybe also what's the information that you have with your own senses on the ground where you're at, because the comms may be coming out of somewhere where the situation is different, right?

Cam

00:24:15 It might be coming out of DC. And I'm in Norfolk, Virginia, and that's like 150-200 miles away.

Dave

00:24:21 So really our, in these scenarios, right? Our options are, stay home and ride it out, go out and try to get food, I guess at some point, right? And leave to try to find a place that's farther from--

Athena

00:24:38 Civilization.

Dave

00:24:38 --that sort of three main....

Cam

00:24:39 I'd say those are pretty good options. I'd say, instead of, I'd say, stay where you are during the initial portions of it [Dave agrees], then you can go stay where you are, branch out further and further, further and further as the weeks go on to judge where that danger zone is.

Dave

00:24:54 Okay.

Cam

00:24:54 So create yourself a buffer zone. And then if need be, then leave, because remember you're already safe where you are now.

Dave

00:25:01 Right.

Cam

00:25:01 It's just, you have to develop where you can and cannot go.

Dave

00:25:07 You also, you need to, you need to acquire food and things like this where you are, right? .

Cam

00:25:09 Right. Right. But leaving, like I said, leaving that safety is not necessarily going to guarantee you food.

Athena

00:25:14 Yeah.

Cam

00:25:14 So in most cases, some, most people like I have like a 30 day supply of food, like, but that's rationing it. You know, that's a little freeze dried stuff.

Dave

00:25:22 Uh huh.

Cam

00:25:22 Umm, most people don't, most people have enough food in their fridge to last, you know, three or four days. Once everything's calmed down, then it becomes, and we could go down the rabbit hole on this one a lot, but then it becomes reliance on yourself and reliance on your friends, you know, if they're still alive. And then once it progresses into the full blown apocalypse where everything is now, the crisis is well, crisis is over. The world is now in chaos. Now it becomes you have to forge to survive.

Dave

00:25:50 Right.

Cam

00:25:51 And whether that means going door to door, taking that risk of searching other homes or finding food where you don't, where you might not find it originally, like you might have to go further than what you're used to, to find that food. But you always have a base to come back to. That's your stronghold. [Athena agrees] You have a shelter, you have the ability to stay in that place. Zombies aren't going to break into the house. It's a zombie apocalypse. They're not gonna break into the house. They just can't. As long as you're quiet, they're not gonna come in. It's the other people, you got worry about. That is where it comes into play. So zombies are the least of your worries.

Athena

00:26:22 Right. So sort of when we're, there's like phases here, right? There's like the initial zombie apocalypse where it's like the infectious agent that is the problem and the, you know, zombies that are infected by it. But then in the kind of trying to get some semblance of civilization and society again, post zombie apocalypse, that's where the real challenge is coming in.

Cam

00:26:45 Right.

Athena

00:26:46 With the other humans.

Cam

00:26:48 Yeah, the other humans. And what most people don't want to know, don't want to realize, or don't want to accept is that there is a degree of normalcy that can be obtained during this whole thing. But, but the first thing is accepting that nothing will ever be the same. That's what most people don't want to let go of. I don't, I don't want, I want, I don't want to let go of my cell phone. I don't want to let go of Google. I don't want to let go of Facebook. Okay. Well, now you've just reverted back to like the 1800s. You have to accept that. And once you accept it, the degree of normalcy can then return. Cause now you know that this is the way things are until something else happens.

Athena

00:27:22 Right. And I think people are, there's a lot of individual differences and how willing people are to be like, "Hmm. All right. Things are totally different now let's see what we can do." Right? Versus like, "Noooo I want to go back!"

Cam

00:27:34 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I tried to, I tried to give up my cell phone for six months. I bought a, like one of those little like candy bar cell phones.

Dave

00:27:42 Like just a phone? Sure, sure.

Cam

00:27:43 Like just a phone, maybe text message. I lasted three days. I lasted three days. [Dave laughs] I couldn't believe it! I was like, I was like, oh, this is gonna be easy. No, it wasn't.

Athena

00:27:53 So why did you decide to give that a try?

Cam

00:27:56 I think there's way too much reliance on technology. That's just my own personal opinion. I think that we are so connected to the net as it were that we have to have immediate gratification when it comes to emails. We have to have immediate gratification when it comes to, uh, like Facebook, you know, we have to have, oh, we want people to give us praise, you know, immediate gratification on a lot of different levels. And I started thinking about it, and I'm like, you know what? I can just check email when I get home. But the problem is we've all been programmed now, that it's like, if I text you or I message, right, or I email you, I want immediate response. I don't want to wait. And that is affecting us as a whole nation, as a world, you know, this whole, this whole idea that we have to sustain ourselves on technology and it's going to cause major problems if anything happens.

Athena

00:28:41 Well, and it sounds like what you're saying is also that we have kind of unwittingly all zombified, each other, right? [Cam agrees] By expecting that everyone is going to be on technology in this way, that there'll be liking our posts and reply, responding to our texts and getting back to the email within a half hour.

Cam

00:28:57 Go look around, look around campus. And all you gotta do is look and see how many people look at their heads down with their phones in their hands. It's unreal. It's unreal, and the technology will not help us in the, in the end.

Athena

00:29:07 Yeah. Right.

Dave

00:29:08 So, so what, how bad would it have to be before something like Google went down or something like the internet went you know what I mean? Like how much of the population needs to survive in order to keep those things...

Athena

00:29:22 Keep Google alive. [Everyone laughs]

Cam

00:29:22 Well, keep Google alive, yeah. So, okay. Let's, let's kind of rephrase that because alive and actually showing up to work are two different things.

Dave

00:29:32 Yeah. That'd be like, in order to like keep.

Cam

00:29:35 I would say you have about a week and a half. That's just Cameron Carlson saying--

Dave

00:29:39 A week and a half of like, what, what are we talking.

Cam

00:29:40 Of Google.

Dave

00:29:43 And like, how big of a disaster are we talking about? Is 10% of the population being wiped out, is 90% of the population being wiped out.

Cam

00:29:49 I'd say it's key people, but I'd say maybe about 30 to 40.

Dave

00:29:52 So if 30 to 40% of the population gets wiped out. And Google...

Cam

00:29:56 The internet will cease.

Athena

00:29:58 Does Google have a zombie apocalypse plan?

Cam

00:30:00 I'm sure they do. It's Google. I'm sure they do.

Athena

00:30:03 Right? Like they're going barricade and like keep quarantine area.

Dave

00:30:08 So you said, so when 30% of the population is gone, then that's when people sort of stop leaving their houses and stop going to work. Is that sort of--

Cam

00:30:16 Honestly, I mean, if I don't even think it has to be like a, I don't think it necessarily has to be a number because the fear, like we had talked about earlier, the fear is going to set in and people aren't gonna come to work anyway. [Dave follows] Like, they're not, they're going to realize that, okay, I have to take care of my family. I'm not going to work.

Dave

00:30:30 Okay. I can see that.

Cam

00:30:31 I'm not working on the satellites to make sure that they still stay in orbit. I'm not working. I'm not worried about the net. You know, if a, if a pandemic or a zombie apocalypse is happening, I'm not going to work. They can deal with themselves.

Athena

00:30:42 Or, or, I mean, our, I have no idea. I'm completely just speculating here. But I know that a lot of the mentality of a lot of the Silicon Valley companies is that they're like a fortress. Like they have the food, they have, you know, places where you can hang out. Like, are people gonna like take their families to work? If they're at a workplace that is already very, almost like we are providing for you.

Cam

00:31:06 It's a, it's a good possibility. It's a, it's a really good possibility. And obviously I don't work in Silicon Valley. I'm not that smart. Um, but it's a possibility, but then you also have to think, okay, Silicon Valley, for some of these companies are set up for their employees. They have rations for their employees. They have power for X amount of days. How do you deal with that when you introduce like four extra people in some cases?

Athena

00:31:27 Yeah. But I, I mean, I hadn't ever thought of this, honestly, until this very moment, but like, I'm even thinking like here, this building that we're in, this would be a way better place to hunker down than my house. Right? So like with--

Dave

00:31:41 In what sense?

Athena

00:31:41 Like, it's way more defensible, um...

Cam

00:31:45 Mmmm potentially? Yeah. Potentially.

Athena

00:31:46 Yeah. The brutalist architecture?

Cam

00:31:50 No. Yeah, you're right. [Everyone laughs] You're right. Umm, you still have stairs. Those are issues. So you have to barricade those off, but again, it doesn't come down to zombies. It comes down to people. They want your stuff. They're going to figure out a way to try and take it.

Dave

00:32:03 Right. That's why I was wondering if it's like, it's almost worth going to a farm. You know? It seems a good thing. I'm trying to think of places that would have--

Cam

00:32:09 Like sightlines and defendable, defendable, borders.

Dave

00:32:12 Yeah. And food, you know, like it's a place of a lot of food and a lot of water.

Cam

00:32:16 Which is why, when people, when people say, well, where are you going to go? I'm going to go to the woods. Do you have any idea of what it takes to survive in the woods? Like you could do it, but even a trained survivalist still has issues.

Dave

00:32:29 Right.

Cam

00:32:29 Like I don't really, pe-people don't really walk through that in their heads. Yeah, I'm gonna go to the woods! Cool. Got a plan? Do you know what berries are poisonous? No? I give you 24 hours.

Athena

00:32:40 Yeah. Well then that also brings up the issue that if a lot of people are like, I'm going to go to the farm or the woods or whatever, like it's going to be crowded. Right? You're not getting away from you know.

Cam

00:32:54 No, you'll always have people. Always have people unless you're in like Montana, cause then there's a lot of land.

Athena

00:32:59 Yeah. Well, so this kind of then brings us to like some of the questions that we ended up talking about a little bit at, um, at your ZAMM talk last ZAMM meeting about, um, in the zombie apocalypse, when, you know, we can speculate that humans have like, you know, we figured out how to like form some, you know, groups or tribes or whatever. Um, but maybe there's some people who are out on their own still and if you're, you know, on your own, um, how do you actually forge connections and figure out like, you know, if someone is someone you can trust or show that you're trustworthy.

Cam

00:33:40 Right.

Athena

00:33:40 So would, could you maybe like give a little rundown of like what kind of landscape that might be like and what tips you would give for people and we can, and then we can chat more about the details. Yeah.

Cam

00:33:53 I'm screwed.

Athena

00:33:56 Uh oh. If you're screwed, then how about us.

Cam

00:33:56 I'm screwed because I say that because when it comes to forging relationships like that, I'm a very open person. I'm a very trusting person by nature. I-i-in an apocalypse, that's probably not going to do very well. I'm gonna probably trust, I might trust the wrong person. When it comes to other people and when it comes to forging relationships, based upon almost nothing, it becomes a kind of a dance like we were talking about during the ZAMM. It kinds of comes as a dance. It's like, you have to look at it as much from a game theory standpoint of how is this going to, how is this outcome going to play? Is this going to be good for me and good for them, which then that makes us, basically, a symbiotic relationship and now we can roll through the apocalypse together? Or is this individual looking to do me harm and do I need to get away from this? Otherwise he's gonna take myself as a lose for me, win for them. Right? So it's almost a very, it's a statistical analysis. It's like, what am I going to do? So if you find somebody that you might know, you might not, and you have to look at that person and go, basically, it's like, who makes the first move?

Like, Hey, what's going on?

Athena

00:35:04 Hey Cam, what's up?

Cam

00:35:04 Hey, 'sup, you know, this is a really shitty situation.

Athena

00:35:09 Yeah, it's pretty shitty.

Cam

00:35:10 Yeah. Okay. So that right there binds us because we're on the same page, you know? But if I start seeing you eyeing what I have, like, you want my rifle or something or some random thing, I have to think of food. [Athena follows] I start seeing that, then it becomes very tense. So you have to say, you have to break it. Like, it's just, it's almost like a normal meeting of somebody, you know, like a outside, you know, now it's kind of like you break that, that wall down. That initial suspicion would be like, where are you from? You know, you just break the ice. And then if it's really defensive, then you know, you've got a problem you need to get out, you know, or deal with that threat before it deals with you. But if you find common ground, then you begin to forge that relationship. And then that becomes a strong relationship. And that process repeats itself over and over and over until you have enough people in that group, maybe four people, maybe three people, just enough that you know, that you can get through it and that you can delegate tasks and people can lean on you and you can lean on them. And at that point you don't need anybody else.

It's all just depending on how you want to run it. But the more people you have, the more difficult it becomes.

Athena

00:36:13 Yeah. But also the more people you have, the more formidability you have, right? So the trade off.

Cam

00:36:19 That, that hoard mentality. Where there's one, there's always more.

Dave

00:36:23 There's also a trade off, like in both zombie scenarios and disease scenarios of bigger groups can be a bigger infection risk.

Cam

00:36:31 Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dave

00:36:32 So, how would that affect sort of.

Athena

00:36:35 Social organization in the zombie apocalypse?

Dave

00:36:38 So, cause normally I would think bigger groups would probably be good in survival situations. Right?

Cam

00:36:43 Well, it depends. It depends on resource allocation. The more people you have, the more resources you need. [Dave agrees] If you can't provide those resources, then you run the potential of somebody being like, well, you can't take care of my needs. So I think I can do it better. And now you've got problems with rebellion on your hands. You're like, "Great. Just what I need."

Dave

00:36:59 Right. Assuming you have resources....

Cam

00:37:02 Assuming you have resources. That's right. You might not. I mean, everyone just might say well, we're screwed anyway, at least we're together.

Dave

00:37:07 Yeah.

Cam

00:37:07 Um, but from like a pandemic, the problem is it's like if one person gets bit or one person gets infected, you don't know about it. Like it takes, let's say it takes time, uh, unlike 28 or not 28 days later, um, World War Z it takes 15 seconds to turn. Okay, that's not going to happen. Unless some biological miracle happens, I don't know about. But if that person turns and you're not, you don't know it, that person then has the ability to infect everybody else.

Athena

00:37:32 Right.

Cam

00:37:32 Or that disease can spread.

Athena

00:37:34 Yeah. I, I think this is like one of the most creepy things about the whole zombie idea is that, you know, if someone who you love is infected, then your very emotions towards that individual end up becoming a vulnerability. Right? Like, imagine, I mean, I hate to bring it up because it fucking sucks to even think about it. But like if one of your kids was infected, like, I mean yeah, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cam

00:38:08 Like that look right there, Dave. Oh, what am I going to do? You know?

Dave

00:38:11 Well, I'm trying to think. Cause if one of your kids gets infected with the disease, right, like Ebola, I guess you quarantine the kid. Right? That's what happens. [Athena follows] And cause you don't want everyone else to get infected.

Athena

00:38:22 But if they're like, irreversibly turned into a zombie that...

Dave

00:38:27 And I think it's still a matter of court. Right? You still separate them from the group.

Athena

00:38:30 Yeah.

Cam

00:38:32 But then you have to deal with that.

Dave

00:38:33 Like deal with the emotional?

Cam

00:38:37 The emotional ramifications, the psychological, like, you might be, you might not be able to quarantine that individual.

Dave

00:38:41 Right. So you have to, right, you either leave the person behind or you would kill the person. So, um...

Athena

00:38:47 Yeah, yeah.

Cam

00:38:48 It's a shitty situation all around, I mean...

Athena

00:38:50 Yeah. But it's like, you know, I mean, I, I guess I kind of expand this out to thinking about like other kinds of Zombification and stuff. Like, you know, if you have an entity that is taken over by another entity, then that entity that's doing the taking over can actually like benefit from all of the connections that, that zombie has to the outside world. Right. It's like--

Dave

00:39:15 It's like, you can be like the way they, like diseases can manipulate you and the people around you. It might even, is that what you mean?

Athena

00:39:23 Well, that too, but, but like just the fact that, you know, the, like we are potential vehicles for like other interests, right?

Dave

00:39:32 Sure.

Athena

00:39:32 Like, you know, disease vectors, other people who hijack us. Right? You know, sometimes people, um, get brainwashed and they do crazy shit. Right? Um, so we as humans, we're pretty vulnerable to being hijacked or we maybe not pretty vulnerable, but we are vulnerable. It does happen. And then when it does happen, those agents of zombification can basically benefit from those social connections that we have in the way that people respond to us in order to have themselves propagated.

Cam

00:40:05 Because we are social creatures.

Athena

00:40:06 Because we're social. Yeah. So it's this like weird thing where, you know, not only is your vehicle like yourself, right, hijacked, but, um, it could, it could be used in ways that are like, so counter to your own evolutionary interests, if like, so I'm going to just be morbid here, like, so say you're a kid, right? And like you get infected with some zombie virus that makes you, you know, like irreversibly a zombie, who just wants to consume flesh and turn other people into zombies, um, you could then basically, you know, go against your "evolutionary interests", right, by attacking those who are closest to you and you might have the best opportunity to do that because those are the people who really, you know, care about you. Right? [Dave agrees] And so, so it's like, it can, it can basically turn your evolutionary interests like inside out if you're hijacked because there's individuals who you're super close to, then they become more vulnerable to the infection because of that social bond and the fact that, you know, underlying that you have shared genetic interest. So they're the ones who are closest to our most wanting help you.

But if you're already gone and you're a zombie, then--

Cam

00:41:24 It's game over anyway.

Athena

00:41:25 Yeah. Yeah. So...

Dave

00:41:27 And how it works with diseases anyway, right? Like if you have, if someone in your family gets sick then you're going to be more likely to get sick. Right? Cause you're around that person. And imagine that's a, that's a tough challenge.

Cam

00:41:40 Yeah, that's why, that's why whenever people, someone has the flu and their kids have the flu and be like, "yo bro, like my kid's got the flu, you might want to back up" and then he'd be like, "no, bro, what's going on? Give me your water!" You know? I mean, of course that's what's going to happen because we never take those warnings or like some people might be like, "Oh, I'm gonna go over here." Well guess what? Yourself is probably gonna get sick because it's in a, it's an enclosed area. So yeah. It would go against everything that we know like socially.

Athena

00:42:04 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just think it's, it's kind of crazy and creepy how like the whole zombification dynamic can like not just hijack your own self, but then like branch out into your social network and your kin network and get you to actually do things that are really against your fitness interest potentially. You as the vehicle.

Cam

00:42:27 Yeah. And the one thing that we don't want to do is we don't want to lock ourselves away because we need that social interaction and we crave that like, "Oh, I'll take care of you, help me," you know? Well, sorry, but...

Athena

00:42:37 Yeah. But then it's like, now we're back to the issue of like the humanity. Right? And like, if we can't actually keep our, you know, motivation to help others and take care of those who are close to us and all of that alive in the zombie apocalypse, then, you know, we have become the monsters. Right?

Cam

00:42:57 Sort of. Sort of. Like what, what is good for the greater good though? Like you think about the greater good, right? You, if one family member gets infected and you have multiple other ones, what is the greater good? The greater good is to deal with, unfortunately as unpleasant as it may be, that greater good is dealing with that individual. So you're still maintaining humanity, but you're also, you're also dealing with that and that's going to affect you hugely across all boundaries. I mean, if we remember season three of The Walking Dead, when Carol shot the little girl in the back of the head, because she was creating a, a dangerous situation for the entire group, that's completely out of our norm. Like who would ever do that? [Athena agrees] But still in humanity, she was deal dealing with the rest of the group. Like what can we do to deal with this? It's super morbid.

Athena

00:43:41 Yeah. And I mean, it's the kind of thing we don't have to face in our day to day lives luckily.

Cam

00:43:46 Thank God.

Athena

00:43:46 Right? I mean, but there are situations where things like that, you know, those kinds of dilemmas [Cam agrees] can arise and challenge us like, you know, what does it actually mean to deal with this in a human way?

Cam

00:44:04 How far can we take it?

Athena

00:44:06 Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, so, Cam, um--

Cam

00:44:12 Total downer. [Cam laughs]

Athena

00:44:13 Yeah, yeah. Let's bring this, let's bring this back a little more like fun zombie apocalypse. Sorry I brought up the whole like children zombie thing, my bad. Um, all right. So now we're just talking about like, you know, Cam you're out there, you're in, let's say the woods. Um, you come, you know, you're on your own. You come to another group of a couple of people. You're talking about some strategies for how you might approach people at the last ZAMM meeting. Maybe share with us a little bit, some potential strategies, you know, how would you go about, um, introducing yourself and, uh, you know, figuring out if it's gonna work out t-to join up with a group or not.

Cam

00:44:54 Absolutely. Um, so if I'm out there an-and come across a group of group of individuals that I don't know, a couple of things you can look for: you, you need to do recon days, days of recon, because you know, watching a group for an hour is not going to tell you anything.

Athena

00:45:08 So you're just going to spy on them for awhile? And then hope that they're not like "Oh there's somebody over there?"

Cam

00:45:14 Absolutely.

Athena

00:45:14 And then shoot you.

Cam

00:45:14 Well, if they shoot me then I know that they're bad. [Athena laughs] So that kind of just, okay we're good. And not these two. Um, but yeah, you're definitely gonna want to watch them for a couple of days, you know, maybe come back, maybe leave, come back.

Athena

00:45:24 Okay.

Cam

00:45:24 You know, if you can observe them safely from a distance, um, you can watch. Um, and it's interesting because if I was thinking about this earlier, if they have kids in the group, if they have animals with them in the group, the way that everybody treats the animals or treats the kids is a very good indication of how they'll accept outsiders.

Athena

00:45:45 Oh, really?

Cam

00:45:45 I mean, mean people will treat animals just that way, pretty much just as they're animals. But if they actually care about the animals, they're a family pet and they actually care at that point about this individual or about the kids, then, you know, you have a higher chance basically just based on that emotion alone, being accepting, at least open to seeing a new person, being a new face. Um, once you've done the research and you see that, well, they're not doing anything, you know, what you consider illicit like murder, cannibalism, things of that nature, which are pretty bad. Um--

Athena

00:46:17 [Athena laughs] Stay away from murderers and cannibals in the zombie apocalypse, right?

Cam

00:46:17 I would say that's, that's a pretty good...

Dave

00:46:20 I wasn't sure how far along, because there's a point in the apocalypse where I'm like, yeah, that's just what you do. Right? Yeah.

Cam

00:46:32 That's normal. That's really really depressing, dude. Noted. [Everyone laughs] Noted, Dave I'm staying away. Sorry buddy.

Dave

00:46:32 Look, I'm just gonna tell you also, just while we're at it, I would have killed whichever one of my kids got infected and I would expect them to kill me. So, uh, yeah.

Cam

00:46:44 I think that's a lot of people, that's a lot of people. My wife would, my wife would differ like, oh my gosh, can you imagine if something happened to my dog? Ohhh my god. Yeah, That'd be terrible.

Dave

00:46:52 But if we had a dog we would eat the dog. [Everyone laughs] Like, like three days in, Google would still be up and we'd have eaten the dog. So maybe, maybe I'm not the one.

Cam

00:47:03 [Everyone laughs] Dave you're making me sad, man.

Dave

00:47:05 Sorry. [Dave laughs] Um, so in this scenario, we're going back to sciences. We're now at a point where murder is still fairly rare.

Athena

00:47:14 And you just watched Dave's group eat the dog.

Cam

00:47:16 I'm out, I'm out, I'm out, I'm out. Because you know, you know, they have other avenues, like if they eat the dog because the dog is there then I'm out. Sorry, bro. Um, I mean, [laughter] yeah, depending on how many there are , you know, you could engage, I mean, you, if you really wanted to go down that path, um, but if you find that they are, if you find that they're pretty docile and they're just kind of trying to survive, then approaching them very cautiously, like with hands up, no, nothing on you put all your, put all your valuables someplace else, Cause you don't know these people yet. So approach hands up very, very nonthreatening. And then let them make the first move. Don't walk up and be like, "'sup bro, I'm here," you know, like all aggressive and like all like, you know, like it would be really hard for me. Um, but you just approach them nonthreatening like and see what happens.

Athena

00:48:10 So what would you say? Like say that you are approaching me and Dave, we didn't just eat a dog [Everyone laughs] what would you,

Cam

00:48:19 First out of my mouth would be like a greeting with hands up. "Good morning." Wait, see the reaction.

Athena

00:48:26 Alright. What do you think Dave?

Dave

00:48:28 I mean, I, my offer, I would offer you, like--

Cam

00:48:35 Dog? [Everyone laughs]

Dave

00:48:35 Like look, I've got some roast dog. And I'd probably just leave it. Like, that would be my first thing if I was trying to like, but yeah, but if I see you and you're like hands up, uh, I got, I mean, I'd probably say hello, how's it going.

Cam

00:48:45 Okay.

Athena

00:48:45 Okay.

Cam

00:48:48 Ass clowns won't say hello, they will attack you most likely. Or they'll just guns up right away without anything to say, you say hello to me now I can say, you know, this is who I am. I noticed you, you know, I've been, I've been, you can be really creepy about this, but I've been watching you for a couple of days, you know, just trying to feel things out because definitely you're explaining yourself, you're explaining what your thought process is and that you're not a threat. You know, you, you just, you, you're not threat to them. You are literally just there to, to, you know, you, a group of people I've been alone by myself for X amount of days. You know, I heard, I overheard voices. I came to check it out and you explain yourself, let that, and then just let it progress naturally.

Athena

00:49:26 So what do you think, Dave?

Dave

00:49:29 Uh,

Athena

00:49:30 Should we, should we invite him in,

Dave

00:49:32 Let them know. Well, we don't have any resources. So we're planning, we're planning to take over a farm right now and we've got to figure out if you're up for it. I think it might, stuff might go down. So

Cam

00:49:45 So now you've introduced a whole new avenue of thinking here [laughter], so it's like, okay, do I help these people commit this crime [laughter] that I know is going to be wrong. That's probably going to get somebody killed. But I need the resources too. And if I say yes, if I say yes, then they'll probably let me go. If I say no, they are gonna off me, because they know what I'm about to do. And I can go tell that individual.

Dave

00:50:02 Oh, that you're going to go tell the person, Oh, that's interesting. Cause then you go tell whoever it is now

Cam

00:50:06 Exactly. Cause if you're one of those people that don't want to see ill harm to fall to anybody else, and you're going to probably try and stop this, which is, it's all cyclical now because you would go, okay, well I don't know what to do, you know? Or you could be like time out. Like if you, and you're not gonna gain their trust within the day. And if they're going to go do this tomorrow, I would just say, okay, see you later. Bye, bye. And roll out. But then you're still going to be faced a moral dilemma of, do I tell this individual that's about to get greased, you know in the farm.

Dave

00:50:31 Right I mean, I guess it also still, for some reason, I still think, and maybe even in this scenario, I'm thinking we're in more desperate situation because we're each trying to assess, right. How desperate the actual situation. And it seems like right now in this scenario, I'm a little more desperate than, or I'm thinking things are more dire than you guys, right?

Cam

00:50:50 Yeah, you're eating dog. Sorry, I keep going back to this.

Dave

00:50:50 Yeah. I haven't gotten a text message in three days.

Cam

00:51:00 Twitter is down [Everyone laughs].

Dave

00:51:00 I feel crazy.

Cam

00:51:00 Yeah, but those, I mean, this is, this is, this is really like, this is real life scenarios. Like this isn't just happening now. It's not happening in the future. It's happening now. And like, you know, major disaster areas.

Dave

00:51:10 And so there was a point in disaster, like you were saying, right. Where things, people where society starts to sort of collapse and it becomes a sort of everybody for themselves. Right. And then like, cause I, and I, and I think as we're playing out this sort of thing, I'm imagining where that my character, I guess is thinking we're already in that. Right. And it sounds like you guys are still like, hold on. We're not there yet. Right. So as an individual, if this sort of really, how do you know like, cause it's, there's a thing where you sort of, I don't think you want to be, you don't want to jump the gun on that. Right? You don't want to be the person who tries to then take over Google, like the first day. Like you also don't want to be the last person that, you know what I mean? Who's like, and so...

Cam

00:51:53 You, you have common examples of this now when the infrastructure and when laws break down, people begin to take matters into their own hands. Look at Somalia. Yeah. There is no government or what little government there is, is corrupt. You have vigilantes, you have pirates, you have all these different people vying for a piece of the pie. And they're all basing this off of what they believe is correct. Um, it's, it's, it's not unheard of it's happening now. Um, and you literally just have to look at those people and say, how did they get there? You know, what drove them to that point of establishing a hierarchy, basically, you know? Cause you know, right off the bat that there was obviously there's been war there for, for, you know, tens and tens twenties, 30 years, even further back than that. But if that becomes the norm and you first start out with, I need to go take this over because if I don't somebody else will and I go, maybe we should hold up. I run the risk of losing out while you may take this over and then I'm screwed anyway.

Dave

00:52:57 Right. It's like that. Cause there's a thing where it's like, let's say it collapses. Right? And then I've gone and tried to take over this farm or whatever. And then all of a sudden, at least I can eat, you know, like there's a part of me that thinks I'm like, I don't, when I, when I think about, you know, Somali pirates and they're trying to feed their families, like.

Cam

00:53:16 Right. Like what they're doing is right, to them.

Dave

00:53:16 It's hard to say that, that, that, that is a morally wrong decision. Right.

Cam

00:53:21 Especially when it's you understand what they're trying to do, but at the same token, you in this situation are an immediate antagonist because it's only three days and you're like, I need to go take this over.

Dave

00:53:31 Well, I think, yeah. I mean, I think I was trying to sort of, I was trying to figure out where we were in this scenario as we were discussing it. Yeah.

Athena

00:53:39 Okay. So, so now we're back in the scenario, I've got a question for you Cam, which is, uh, what kind of skills do you have that might be relevant to why we should let you join our group?

Cam

00:53:52 Oh boy. Uh, well, I know how to survive in the woods. All loosely, I guess at this point. Um,

Athena

00:54:01 All right. So like foraging,

Cam

00:54:02 Foraging, trapping, hunting.

Athena

00:54:03 That seems pretty good to me. What do you think, Dave?

Dave

00:54:05 Sure.

Cam

00:54:06 I'm a blacksmith, you know I make blades.

Athena

00:54:09 Blacksmith!

Cam

00:54:09 I know how to forge. I know how to make weapons.

Athena

00:54:17 Yeah, neither of us really can do any of that. [Dave agrees]

Dave

00:54:17 Let's hope he doesn't interview us. [Everyone laughs]

Cam

00:54:20 When you bring skills. [laugher] So it's kind of like, it is an audition. And we talked about that, I think at ZAMM.

Athena

00:54:27 Yeah. Yeah. Well, cause we were talking about, you know, like, do you bring gifts? Do you bring stuff or not? Like as you're approaching and.

Cam

00:54:37 It's a possibility.

Athena

00:54:37 You know, like if you bring, if you bring all of your stuff, then if the thing that's most valuable about you is the stuff you're bringing. And then, you know, then what's the point of keeping you around, right?

Dave

00:54:49 Although it would still convey I can get stuff, right. Like if I, you know,

Cam

00:54:52 Look what I can do.

Dave

00:54:52 If I'm watching your family and I just leave some food, I leave a can of beans or whatever. And then if that's rare, then it sort of indicates, alright, A) I'm willing to be a part of the group and B) I have access to some amount of food.

Cam

00:55:08 Right. And then you can, or you could just openly do it and be like, Hey I'm so, and so I'm bringing this, think about it for a second. I'd like to be, you know, to become friends and then leave and then just watch from a different spot. Be like, I'm going to be over there, but then be over here watching what's about to happen. Yeah.

Athena

00:55:23 Yeah. Well, and I mean, I think the question of like, what, you know, do you approach with stuff slash gifts, supplies, etc, or not like probably a lot of that would come down to what information you gather from watching the group. Right? Like if you know, you're watching and you see them just like, you know, shooting anything that approaches, um, then you know, maybe you don't want to go in at all, let alone go in there with stuff [Cam agrees].

Dave

00:55:50 And this also assumes that this is strangers. Right. Because it seems like I would imagine the first thing I would do is I would reach out to my existing social network. Right. It started with my family and then probably close friends, people that I trust now. And so

Cam

00:56:04 We always talk about like, you know, you have friends that are like, well, I'm coming to your house during the zombie apocalypse. People say it all the time. I have friends that said all the time, be like, well, we're going to come to your house. Cause you have all the guns. Okay, good call. Yeah. Um, and then I say the same thing, Hey, I'm going to come to your house with this plus with them or we're all going to make a, you know, a commune. And so yeah, you're right. You would obviously start with the groups, you know, until people die off, which will eventually happen, unfortunately. Um, and then you're forced to find new friends, right? You're talking, you're talking about years. You probably survived years without having to do that.

Athena

00:56:37 Cam you bring up a really interesting point though, which is that I think for those of us who are sort of thinking about the zombie apocalypse on a regular basis, [Dave laughs] we're also thinking about like our Z-teams and maybe we're doing it in half joking terms, but.

Cam

00:56:52 No we're not. No we're not, this is serious stuff right now. [Everyone laughs]

Athena

00:56:55 But yeah, I know at the same time, there's like, you know, like who would actually be on your Z-team? Like who is someone who, you know, that you could rely on, someone who, you know, hopefully brings some skills to the table, even if it's not conventional zombie apocalypse skills. Right. Like somebody might just be really good at negotiating. Like that could be really important in the zombie apocalypse.

Cam

00:57:15 Every skill is important, depending on, you know, it doesn't matter what it is, every skill is important.

Athena

00:57:19 Yeah. But I feel like you kind of have to know a little bit about people's hidden talents, right.

Cam

00:57:24 Absolutely.

Athena

00:57:24 Cause you're not necessarily going to see like at work like, Oh, Cam can, you know, forge metal or, um, Dave is really great at roasting dogs. Like those aren't things.

Cam

00:57:37 Dog souffle, mmmm.

Athena

00:57:37 That you necessarily get to see in your day to day interactions with people. So.

Cam

00:57:42 Yeah. You always, you, you know, your core friends, like I have my friends that are architects, I mean, okay, you guys are great at building something, you know, Rid and Andy, you're great at building something, Scott and Anna, they raise chickens. They have, you know, you know, they can garden, well, guess what? I know where I'm taking evrybody there. I have all the guns and the ammunition. Cool. Well, I'm bringing that with me, you know,

Athena

00:58:01 You'll protect the chickens.

Cam

00:58:02 Yeah. Yeah. Every skill is important. It just depends on how you use it.

Athena

00:58:07 Yeah. Yeah. I think it also, I mean, it can be kind of fun to think about like, alright, what survival skills do I actually have that translate to, you know, a world where we don't have all this infrastructure that we've just become completely dependent on.

Dave

00:58:23 I'm doomed by the way, I realized it'll be a while before someone needs a media outreach program manager

Cam

00:58:31 [laughter] Start acquiring new skills, Dave.

Athena

00:58:38 [Everyone laughs] I don't know. I mean, maybe you get to a certain point though with the size of your group and at least you need someone to do PR right?

Cam

00:58:46 We need someone slow.

Dave

00:58:46 Oh.

Cam

00:58:50 [laughter] You don't have to be the fastest. Just faster than you.

Athena

00:58:55 So, so Cam um, when we're looking at like these potential scenarios of the zombie apocalypse, like how, how does it affect our own autonomy? Right. So, cause part of like, what we talk about in Zombified is like, you know, are these things happening around us? Do they challenge our autonomy? And like, is it a problem? And I'm just thinking like when thing, you know, when disaster goes down, right, you were talking before about like how there's this sort of command and control military response. Right. And that can potentially impinge on people's autonomy. Right. Um, but then there's also this sort of like grassrootsy kind of thing that happens where people often actually are coming in with wanting to help each other, wanting to build those connections, wanting to even like build physical infrastructure and um, figure out how to take care of people. Right. So you have a sort of, you know, on one hand, very autonomous, emergent cooperative thing happening. And then you can also have like the, you know, government military response, which is supposed to be there to do good, but can maybe break up the autonomous kinds of things.

So, so, you know, how do you see like autonomy like changing, like in these, these stages and like, is this something we should be thinking more about? Or

Cam

01:00:25 So, like you said, in the, in the initial stages of any disaster, you're obviously the grassroots people wanting to come in and do good, you know, help out everybody. And then the military comes in and, and in cases, fractures that, you know, and then kicks everybody out because they need the military needs to be able to conduct their operations without being impeded by all these people that want to do help, which is understandable from a military standpoint. But if you're fracturing the, if you're fracturing the grassroots movement to bring in all these supplies, you're cutting off a great logistics source. Um, and in addition to, in that case, these grassroots individuals are coming in knowing that what they're doing is good and that will be safe for a certain amount of time because when the military comes in, they provide, what do they provide? They also provide safety. Like if the military is boots on ground, they know that these grassroots individuals, these individuals know that they'll be safe when the military pulls out and that they are left there.

Then it's a possibility that looting and rioting begin, um, you know, uh, harm may come to these individuals when they're just trying to provide sustenance and survivability to these people. Um, as far as, as far as later on in the phases, it becomes to, can I sustain what I'm doing? What is, what is being gained from this? Okay, this, this crisis is going on much longer than I thought this is not viable for me to keep doing this. So then they have to pull back and the military is probably going to be still be there in a way. But I don't think that it's, I don't think that kind of involvement is sustainable, you know, because you, you may lose your autonomy in the beginning with the military coming in, but then when the military leaves, you also lose that autonomy because you no longer have the freedom of movement and freedom of safety that you did when they were still here, not to mention the population may.

Athena

01:02:21 So the whole situation is just going to end up constraining autonomy because [Cam agrees] of the uncertainty and danger and such. Yeah, that's interesting.

Cam

01:02:31 And then when everything normalizes or stabilizes and the military is gone and the grassroots people are gone, that then situation becomes normal. So now you are, you are free to regain or resume your autonomous status where you can do whatever you want. It becomes the new normal.

Athena

01:02:47 Yeah. So just like going really big picture now for a minute about sort of zombies and zombification. If you look at sort of where we are now with like how the world is functioning and the kinds of things that do already, zombify us, the kinds of things that are potential threats that are maybe already affecting people in some parts of the world and we're sort of insulated from, um, you know, if things kind of keep going in the same way that they're going now, um, what do you think are going to be the biggest zombification threats in the future? Is it going to be an infectious disease that zombifies us that way, or is it going to be technology or is it going to be, um, our, you know, human relationships or like, you know, what, what is the biggest zombification threat?

Cam

01:03:38 Sure. This is a really good a question. Um, I would have to say technology would be the first thing that really creates our, because it's already a current, our dependence on technology is staggering. [Athena agrees]. You take away somebody's cell phone and they're going to lose it. I'm like, just go off the deep end. Um, I mean, I tried it for three days that I couldn't do it.

Athena

01:04:03 Dave is going to try to take over a farm and eat his dog. [laughter]

Cam

01:04:05 Yeah he's going to be making Kung Pao cat and like you know all these other things. [Everyone laughs]

Dave

01:04:05 Look, I had to survive, alright.

Cam

01:04:05 Three days in, yeah.

Athena

01:04:05 No judgment, no judgment.

Dave

01:04:05 I don't keep a lot of food in the fridge.

Cam

01:04:19 Oh my God. Orange pigeon, good. I think, but I think technology's really gonna just look at the things that are happening now, virtual reality, like immersive virtual reality. People depending on technology to get them through, you know, relationships, like we talked about earlier relationships with machines, like what, like what we have come so far from, you know, dial up modems, you know, and the internet being a, being a thing, not just a normal thing. And it's all just going to, I mean, I hate to say it, but Skynet is going to become self-aware, you know, like something's going to happen where we rely so much on this technology that it's going to become such a hindrance when we don't have it.

Athena

01:05:07 Even if it doesn't become self aware, it could still really fuck things up.

Cam

01:05:10 Oh yeah, absolutely [laughter]. I spoke earlier today when we were meeting about the, the robot that can fire a gun and hit targets and be knocked down, rollover, and engage a target with a gun. [Athena is surprised] Oh, Oh, that's the thing. That is an absolute thing. And it just, I mean, first we had the robot dogs, which were able to carry packs and then it evolved to robots that can jump on boxes and do squats and have like, have actual like, you know, movements like human movements. And then it evolved to articulated joints, and now it evolved to like engaging targets with firearms.

Athena

01:05:47 Wow.

Dave

01:05:47 And what is the timeframe for this, not very long.

Cam

01:05:49 It's just like a year and a half, two years.

Dave

01:05:51 But I mean like since the robot, the backpack dogs, their only a decade. Super fast, so.

Cam

01:05:54 There were, yeah, it was super fast. Absolutely. Um, and not to mention the technology is there or is there, or is currently being developed to create these pandemic viruses. I mean, biological warfare and bio testing has been around since, you know, the dark ages when they used to launch corpses infected with black plague, over, black death, over castle walls. It's been around for, it's been around for ages. Um, and to think that we're not developing some superbug would be kind of naive. Maybe, maybe that's just, you know, conspiracy theorist, Cameron Carlson, but everything I've seen the technology we have makes that available. So it's going to be technology, but technology is going to drive us.

Dave

01:06:35 Now what would we use that for? Cause we wouldn't want a bug,

Cam

01:06:38 We would not. Well, no, no, that's not true because in order to develop vaccines and things like that, we need to develop them. Right. We need to develop the superbugs to develop the vaccines. You know, these are the things that we're dealing with and to think that somebody else out there is not with ill will developing these things in a note, in the lab in order to release, look at the movie 12 monkeys. That could be something that's very possible in the future.

Athena

01:07:05 Yeah. Well, and some people they just want to fuck things up for everybody else.

Cam

01:07:11 They just want to watch the world burn.

Athena

01:07:11 For the LOLs.

Cam

01:07:12 Yeah. For the LOLs. Yeah for the LOLs. Yeah. Just for shits and giggles.

Athena

01:07:16 All right. So given this completely apocalyptic conversation that we've had, um, what are some practical pieces of advice for all of us, for, you know, surviving, if the zombie apocalypse does come or, um, surviving the techno-pocalypse that may be over right now, the techno - bug yeah [Dave agrees].

Cam

01:07:40 Most takes some ecstacy. So this is just coming from me, you know, this is everybody's going to have their own opinion, but my biggest thing, and we've already touched on it once. My biggest tip is to read, read, like, read everything you can, even though, you know, some of it may be out there, but read about what is going on in the world, you know, read about politics that are going on because the politics often drive the economic and political situation in this, in the areas that we live, read how to, you know, basic survival skills, read medical, read, you know, read how to shoot, you know, go take classes, you know, train. And it doesn't have to be like, I'm not saying every day for the next six months, you shall do this, but pick up a book, you know, learn how to survive, learn how to do sutures. Like, you know, on like a piece of meat or something like if you're bored, you know, I mean,

Athena

01:08:26 Go get some chicken.

Cam

01:08:27 Go get some chicken! Yeah, take some twine and sew it up. You know, learn how to do that kind of stuff. Um, learn what plants in your area that you can eat. Um, start building a bag or a box, and that, that on itself could be a whole 'nother, like, you know, talk, but, um, global what's out there, like what works for you might not work for me. What works for me might not work for you. Um, start looking at your area and start mapping out where you would go, what resources does that area offer?

Athena

01:08:58 After your initial period of staying home.

Cam

01:09:00 Exactly. And to that, have food. Gather 30 day supply of freezedried food. You know I finally convinced my wife. I'm like, we need this, you know, just in case, you know, you don't, you don't ever know when power might come back on or it might not. So finally she gave in. Yes. Win.

Athena

01:09:16 How long does that last? The freezerdried food?

Cam

01:09:19 Well, it says 30 days, but that's also for one person. So you can ration it out.

Athena

01:09:22 No, I mean like, before,

Cam

01:09:23 Oh you mean like the shelf-life. 40 years.

Athena

01:09:28 40 years?

Cam

01:09:28 40 years, unopened.

Athena

01:09:28 Wow. That seems like a good investment.

Cam

01:09:34 I would agree. We still have MREs from World War II that are still good.

Athena

01:09:37 Wow.

Cam

01:09:38 Well, they're still there.

Athena

01:09:39 Wow.

Cam

01:09:40 Oh yeah. The crackers could dent a tank, but you know, they're there. Um, but I think those are the biggest ones. Like learn, learn basic survival and learn how to hunt and fish. You know, you teach a man how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.

Athena

01:09:52 And what are the key things in your go bag? Or what would you suggest maybe for the average person to have in their go bag?

Cam

01:09:59 Um, a water filtration system now I love, and I keep, I said all the time and no, I'm not being paid by LifeStraw, but a LifeStraw because you can almost drink out of any puddle and they'll still be good water. Um, it really, it gets about 99.5% of like bacteria out of it. So you can use that and it's over and over and over and over and over. Like I think I can remember like 500, 600 uses. That's the biggest thing, cause you're gonna need it. Um, a good firearm, like a 22. You don't need anything fancy. You don't need like some crazy gun 22 with like 2000 rounds of ammunition because you could comfortably store that in your bag. A tarp to build shelters, five 50 cord for wrapping things, for tying things up, whatever, making like, uh, traps, uh, waterproof matches. If you don't have waterproof matches, you can make them by putting them in a pillbox and just taping it up. Steel wool and a nine volt. Cause that's good firestarter.

Athena

01:10:51 How do you start a fire with steel wool and a nine volt?

Cam

01:10:53 You have to have really fine, it's called quad zero steel wool. And all you do is you spread it out with some kindling on top or some paper, touch the nine volts, the steel wall, and it ignites, it creates an electrical charge that sends it through it and it actually just burns it up.

Athena

01:11:06 That's cool.

Cam

01:11:07 Yeah, it's really cool.

Dave

01:11:09 How much does 2000 rounds of 22 amo cost?

Cam

01:11:14 Cost? 2000 rounds. Probably hundred, hundred fifty bucks.

Dave

01:11:18 Oh, that's not bad.

Athena

01:11:21 How heavy is it? That would be my,

Cam

01:11:24 Not bad. Maybe about three, four pounds.

Athena

01:11:27 Okay.

Dave

01:11:27 Okay.

Athena

01:11:28 Less than a laptop!

Cam

01:11:28 Less than a laptop, yeah!

Dave

01:11:28 And then what about the food? Uh, the 40 days, how much?

Athena

01:11:35 You're just keeping that at home, right?

Dave

01:11:38 You could keep the ammo if you don't go to the range, right?

Cam

01:11:40 Yeah. I had like a whole bunch of it on the box. Um, but I mean the food, it's one of the things that if you buy the bucket, cause it came in a bucket like a, like a five gallon bucket and you're going to just throw that in the back of the car if you're using it. But if not, you just open it up and then pack your backpack with as much as you think you might need or you and your significant other or partner or whatever it is can, can split that. Um, because you never know.

Dave

01:12:00 Where'd you get it by the way?

Cam

01:12:01 Amazon.

Dave

01:12:02 Amazon?

Cam

01:12:03 Amazon! Yes. A prepper's dream.

Dave

01:12:06 Do you know, just like generally, like what the approximate cost. I'm just curious. I'm just trying to figure out what.

Cam

01:12:10 I think ours was $70 on Amazon for like a 30 day supply of freeze dried stuff.

Dave

01:12:16 Okay.

Cam

01:12:16 You can get it. I mean, you can get, different stuff.

Athena

01:12:19 I mean, I personally am worried about quality of things on Amazon. I feel like it's been going down and down and like, I would worry about like, not knowing what a reliable place is to get MRAs. That would actually, you know, last.

Cam

01:12:34 Yeah. So you can, there's some reputable companies out there that you can get it from. I think one of it's called like Backpackers Peak or something like that. It's got an orange mountain on it and the other one is, um, chef, I don't remember which I bought. Good, good call me. Um, but you can, you can read the reviews and then you can go research it. Like if it has like a shady website, then they probably got it off the back of a truck in Idaho, I don't know. Like there's some, there's some good stuff out there.

Dave

01:12:58 So this whole thing. And then how much, how much is the list?

Cam

01:13:01 Oh, 15 bucks.

Dave

01:13:02 So then, okay, so this whole thing is, we're talking maybe 300 bucks, so that's not too bad.

Cam

01:13:07 Oh yeah, if, if that. Um, and that's just basic basic stuff, you might want to add stuff in there, like a med kit, uh, a whistle, a compass, you know, firestarter um, all that good stuff because I mean a good bag if you did it without the ammunition, without the 22 and just did it with basic. Okay. I need to survive for a week in a bag you're looking at, maybe you could spend $300 and be ready to go.

Dave

01:13:33 That's not bad.

Cam

01:13:33 No, if you really wanted to throw in at 22 and ammo put another $200 and you're good

Athena

01:13:37 For me, the biggest cost is like the emotional costs of like making a go bag. I don't know. It's still, it feels like, Oh, like, like, I don't know, like somehow it makes it real that nothing bad could happen if I make a go bag. So I, I I've like started a few times, but I can't bring myself to complete it [Everyone laughs].

Cam

01:13:59 That's funny. That is funny.

Athena

01:14:01 Yeah. All right, Cam, um, any last wise words for us, anything people should keep in mind other than stay home and figure out what's going on. Don't just like go out in the streets and, and run around as an apocalypse is going on.

Cam

01:14:16 Just make sure you have a plan. Make sure that plan is sound. Stay flexible, uh, value living. And uh, always remember what you don't know - can eat you. So there you go.

Athena

01:14:28 Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing your brains with us this episode.

Cam

01:14:32 My pleasure.

Outro

01:15:46 [Pychological by Lemi]

Athena

01:15:50 Zombified is a production of Arizona State University and the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Alliance.

Dave

01:15:56 And we would like to thank everyone who helped make Zombified possible, including the Department of Psychology here at ASU,

Athena

01:16:03 The Interdisciplinary Cooperation Initiative and the President's Office at ASU,

Dave

01:16:08 The Lincoln Center for Applied Zombie.

Athena

01:16:10 Zombie!

Dave

01:16:10 Zombie, yes, Ethics.

Athena

01:16:16 All the brains that help make this podcast, including tall Rom, who does our awesome sound. Shout out, to tall Rom, woo hoo!

Dave

01:16:24 Hi Tal! Neil Smith, who does the illustrations that you can see behind Athena if you guys are watching this. So

Athena

01:16:30 Lemi who is the writer and producer of the awesome song, Psychological that you heard at the beginning of this podcast, and you will hear at the end as well.

Dave

01:16:42 And the Z-team who transcribe and help us with social media posts. They've been doing a lot of really good social media posts lately. So,

Athena

01:16:50 Yeah. You can check us out. We're all over social media now. Not just Twitter and Instagram and Facebook where you've seen us before, but, um, we have not just on Spotify, we have both a Zombified account and we now have a ZAMApocalypse account, which has all sorts of fun playlists of songs that are zombie themed. So definitely check that out and we're on TikTok.

Dave

01:17:16 And now if they go to zombified.org, we're sort of continuously updating that with all the different things. Right. So that's a good jumping off point.

Athena

01:17:24 Yeah. Definitely check out zombified.org. Um, and if you're on your favorite social media platform, you can just search for Zombified or ZAMApocalypse, and you'll be able to find us.

Dave

01:17:34 How is ZAMApocalypse spelled?

Athena

01:17:34 It's like ZAMA but then it's -pocalypse at the end.

Dave

01:17:39 Okay. So just the one A. Alright. Yeah. Z A M A -pocalypse,

Athena

01:17:45 I don't know how to spell the rest of it.[laughter]

Dave

01:17:48 Alright. Um, and uh, oh, so we mentioned the conference before, but people should still register for that and they can,

Athena

01:17:55 Yes. It's going to be super fun.

Dave

01:17:56 Check that out at,

Athena

01:17:58 And you get a free t-shirt.

Dave

01:17:59 That's right. And, people who want even more t-shirts should go check out our merch.

Athena

01:18:06 Yes. So you could find our merch also on our website, zombified.org. And if you want to check out the, uh, awesome logos and everything we have for the ZAMM conference, all that is at zom- ZAMM- what is it? zombiemed.org. There's just so much ZAMA and Zombie and Zombified. Just my, my lips can't keep up with my brain.

Dave

01:18:29 I know. [Dave laughs] So, but we have really cool t-shirts we have a new t-shirt design that, uh, that Neil has been working on. We've been trying to figure out if it was too gross or gross enough,

Athena

01:18:40 It was, there were, we had a disagreement about it, but it's still kind of gross. So

Dave

01:18:46 That's right.

Athena

01:18:51 It's not too gross.

Dave

01:18:51 So definitely check that out. Um, and that's also on, they can find that on zombified.org as well. Right?

Athena

01:18:58 So the registration for the Zombie Apocalypse Medicine Meeting is at zombiemed.org. And if you register, you'll get your t-shirt in the mail.

Dave

01:19:08 Oh, that's where you get the gross t-shirt. So that's a special, that's the special, yeah. Okay, cool. Um, all right. Anything else we want to let them know before we head off?

Athena

01:19:19 Okay. Check out Channel Zed. If you're looking for more zombie-esque fun and horror, uh, we have lots of fun shows happening and you can tune in live with us. Um, pretty much every Monday at 10:30 we're we're doing a live stream, so

Dave

01:19:36 Cool. Well, thanks so much, Athena. This was fun.

Athena

01:19:40 Yeah. And thank you for listening to Zombified, your source for fresh brains.

DaveOutro

01:19:46 [Psychological by Lemi]